Nonprofit Resources
Margin for Mission Podcast S1:E6 – From Pulpit to Staff Room: Culture That Preaches – Transcript
Ken Tan:
Welcome to Margin for Mission, the CRI CapinCrouse Podcast, where two friends, Ken and Chris, bring you real talk about creating space for what matters most. Because when your organization has financial and operational margin, you can focus on your mission with confidence.
Chris Purnell:
We’re professionals who’ve spent years helping churches, higher education institutions, and other mission-focused nonprofit organizations manage their accounting, tax compliance and other challenges. We understand the complexities you face and we’re here to make it simpler.
Ken Tan:
In each episode, we’ll dive into practical insights on leadership, operations and the everyday challenges of running a nonprofit without the jargon.
Chris Purnell:
And we’ll talk about life too, family, faith, quite a bit of football and finding balance in a world that rarely slows down.
Ken Tan:
So whether you’re managing budgets, leading teams or just trying to keep your mission moving forward, you’re in the right place.
Chris Purnell:
This is Margin for Mission. Let’s get started.
Ken Tan:
Well, hello again. Welcome to Margin for Mission again. It is so wonderful to have everyone back on here as well and we’re so excited again about another wonderful topic that we’ll be talking about too. It’s something that I think is extremely relevant for us, even on the for-profit side, but this is something we’re going to really focus on the ministry side too as well. So we’re excited about having our fellow colleague here, Stan Reiff. And so Stan is a wonderful mentor of mine. I am just so honored that I get to work alongside him and, Chris, I know you get to interact with him because he is a fellow partner for us here at the firm too. So welcome, Stan, and we’re so glad that you’re going to be on this podcast with us.
Stan Reiff:
Thank you, Ken. It’s good to be with you guys today.
Ken Tan:
Absolutely. Well, one of the things that we’ve been trying to do, and it’s in this tradition now, is, as you can tell, I am the Where’s Waldo? of the firm and part of it is, “Where’s Ken today?” and it actually is, as you can tell with my background, I’m in a different place. And my hope here is to quiz Chris to see if you can figure out where I’m at. And, Stan, you already know where I’m at, so worst-case scenario, if Chris really cannot figure this out, you can just throw him a bone there. Are you ready, Chris?
Chris Purnell:
I’m, yes, as ready as I’m going to be. And, Stan, if you want to bail a brother out, if it looks like I’m just going dead in the face, just feel free to jump in.
Ken Tan:
All right, so here we go. Here’s a couple of the first clues. Okay, so this was America’s first planned city and it was designed with a grid system featuring 24 original open squares. Actually from a historical perspective, Union General Sherman spared the city from destruction during his march because he was very impressed by its beauty and presented to President Lincoln as a Christmas gift. It is also the birthplace of the Girl Scouts. Also from an overall perspective, it is maritime, so it is along the coast. And then lastly, similar to Chicago, every St. Patrick’s Day, they also dye their river green. So I’ll pause at that and see if you can guess where I’m at now.
Chris Purnell:
Man. Well, so there’s a lot there, Ken. Good job. Some good research there. Many, many kudos. So the mention of General Sherman naturally makes me think of Charleston or Atlanta, but I wondering if it’s either one of those. And then the talk about the first planned city, I had no idea that there was a first planned city. I didn’t know that was a thing.
Ken Tan:
Well.
Chris Purnell:
So I’m a little bit at a loss. Are there any other clues that you have? Am I getting warm? Let’s say it that way.
Ken Tan:
You’re close, you’re in that the city in the southeast area. I’ll also add … Let’s see what else I can add here. The book, Midnight in the Garden of Good and Evil was actually created around this area, the outside area. It is near, I guess if I could think of an island, it’s called Jekyll Island, is another area. It also, if you think about the downtown area, the movie Forest Gump was there too in terms of one of the plazas.
Chris Purnell:
Gosh. Okay, so this is-
Stan Reiff:
It’s a religious reference. This is later, the Wesley Brothers spent some time in America as missionaries, in the particular John Wesley.
Chris Purnell:
Okay. I’m assuming we’re looking at Georgia. Looking at Georgia.
Ken Tan:
Also home to the first African Baptist church as well, served as a safe house for the underground railroad. So a lot of history in this city.
Chris Purnell:
A lot of history. You guys are giving me so many good hints. This is so rich, Forest … Like movies, history, religious history, but to my shame, for some reason I can’t quite come up with it. So where are we? Where are we, Ken?
Ken Tan:
Well, life is like a box of chocolates and I got some chocolates here in Savannah, Georgia.
Chris Purnell:
Savannah. Of course, of course.
Ken Tan:
I will actually be in Charleston in a couple of weeks, so most likely there’ll be a podcast episode during that time too, but it’s funny, because every time I travel, everyone’s like, “Oh, how is this city?” And I always like, “Well, the four walls around me are really nice. It’s really well maintained.” But it’s one of those things, it is a blessing of being able to interact with so many different organizations because part of it, I think, especially when we start thinking about what we’ve been doing, we get a chance to observe different workplaces, different cultures, especially in a ministry setting. And that’s where part of it is just talking about what this topic we have today is so prevalent, which is on culture.
And that’s why part of it is being able to have Stan on here. I think, especially when Stan shares a little about himself, you’ll see exactly why he is our cultural leader at the firm. And it’s so important because it has really been important not just for our team, but even for myself, for you, because everyone gets to see the type of impact that happens when you have a healthy workplace culture too. So with that, Stan, we’d love to share a little bit about you, but I think it’ll be even easier to hear your story. So if you could first start off by sharing about yourself. I think everyone here is going to be extremely excited to hear about this story that especially brought you to CapinCrouse ultimately.
Stan Reiff:
Well, thanks Ken, and again, Ken and Chris, thanks again for inviting me to be on this podcast with you. I’m so excited about this Margin for Mission. It’s just such an incredible topic and such an incredible platform to be able to do this. And so, Ken, as you well know, I actually start telling my story going back a couple generations as part of the culture we’re trying to create within our own family of five and seven generations. But my grandpa was actually a pastor and became a Bible college president, and then in 1946, he resigned and moved the family to Guatemala, Central America to be church planting missionaries.
So my dad was raised there. Consequently, my brothers and I were born and raised in Guatemala and El Salvador and I came to America for high school and college. And so I learned English in school. And then when I came to America, my parents had a strong desire, discipline for us boys to have a US-based education for high school and college. And so my undergraduate studies in college, because I attended a bible college that my dad was a professor at, were biblical studies, pastoral ministries and missionary aviation. So my dad was a contemporary of Jim Elliot, Nate Saint and the five missionaries that were killed in Ecuador. So my dad had always wanted to be a missionary pilot, never had the opportunity. So when I had the opportunity, I thought, “Well, that’s what I’m going to do and I’ll go back to the family ministry.”
So that triple major was exactly what I needed to go back to Latin America. And again, part of my joke, part of the story, if you will, is I didn’t want to put God in the box, saying I was going back to Guatemala or El Salvador or Central America specifically, but it would certainly be somewhere in Latin America. Because at that point, I felt far more Hispanic. Spanish was my first language. I’d come to America for high school, didn’t really understand US culture, certainly missed out on all the entertainment, sports, movies, actors and still struggle with that to this day.
But anyway, so I met my wife, Amy, we were dating high school seniors and then college, got married right out of college, and God, in His sovereignty and wonderful sense of humor, because while we were dating I told Amy that, “Hey, I’m not going to put God in a box that will be in Central America, but somewhere in South America. God would never call us up north and cold and snow.” And of course, that includes Georgia this week and last week, but I actually made the random comment that God would never call us to Alaska because it’d be a waste of my Spanish and I don’t know anything about snow.
Chris Purnell:
[inaudible 00:09:04].
Stan Reiff:
Yeah, so either I’m directionally challenged or it was an incredible headwind, but my wife Amy and I ended up in North Pole, Alaska for seven years and Kodiak Island for six. So we moved originally as church planting missionary pilot family and then I helped started a flying organization. Then I was also involved with the church as a youth pastor, youth leader. And then my wife and I both ended up teaching at the mission school. Amy was teaching second grade. I taught middle school and high school English and Bible, Spanish and some geography. We’ve got the three boys. They were all born while we lived in North Pole, but then Stanley Junior is oldest and he was born two months premature and experienced his multiple disabilities and that became an incredible catalyst in our lives, which then because of his health, we needed to leave the interior.
Story for another day, but we experienced 70-some degrees below zero with some frequency. Our youngest son was born when it was 58 degrees below zero. So today’s cold is not quite like it used to be back then. I used to walk in the snow uphill both ways in barefoot.
Chris Purnell:
That’s right.
Ken Tan:
T-shirt.
Stan Reiff:
We ended up on the Kodiak Island, and there, I served as the director of finance and development for a residential group on facility with the Kodiak Baptist Mission. And so I joked and say I’m one of those split personalities for you all, raise the money, come home and audit it. But then ended up going to work for a CPA firm, headed up the not-for-profit practice, got recruited to go to work for a law firm. Chris, you and I have talked about that I believe. Tried to manage the law firm with offices in Seattle, Anchorage and Kodiak. And it was a firm that tried the Exxon Valdez case back in the ’80s and ’90s.
Stanley had another surgery he needed and we couldn’t return to Alaska. And so God, in His sovereignty, I ended up getting recruited to go to work for large ministry here in Atlanta, Georgia back in 2000. And we’ve been in Atlanta ever since. And so eventually, I ended up going to work for Larry Burkett’s ministry, Crown Financial Ministries, and was there for a decade as a CFO, COO, global EVP. But when I moved to Atlanta and started working in the ministry sector here, I brought CapinCrouse in to be the audit firm for us. And so for 10, 12 years I was a client, and then when I eventually left at Crown, I ended up joining CapinCrouse on the same side of the desk where all three of us are on. And so I’ve been a partner at CapinCrouse for about the last 15 years or so.
Chris Purnell:
Wow. Wow.
Ken Tan:
And that’s where part of it is you can just hear even with all the stories about this, just how God has even utilized you Stan in a way that now allows you to serve other organizations, especially from your own experiences and the history you have. And I think that’s why I’ve always seen it is the folks that are at our firm are so passionate about serving ministries and churches because of where we have come from too. I think the simple part that’s been interesting is for Chris and I, essentially we’re pastor’s kids or missionary’s kids and that’s where probably it has shaped who we are and what we are passionate about and also how we influence others.
And I think that’s why even in culture and how things are for our firm, that is so prevalent into what’s so important for us too, whether it’s our mission, our vision, our values. And it’s something where I think is so pertinent for us to talk about today too. So, Chris, I know just as I think about the term culture, it is one of those things where we could probably go into so many different tangents and even just considering what people perceive culture to be and this is where part of it is, “What do you think?” and I’d love to get Stan’s thoughts too as well, is, “How do you perceive culture, especially from a workplace perspective?”
Chris Purnell:
Yeah, it’s an endlessly fascinating topic, the topic of culture, because you can start talking about Stan’s story made me think about this, that Stan lived in a different culture for such a long period of time that it essentially became his culture. And it sounds like there was some element of a sense of almost homelessness because, “Okay, I don’t really belong in this culture because I was transplanted there, but I also don’t feel like I belong in the culture that is ‘my culture,’ so where am I?” which I’m assuming that is a common phenomenon for missionary kids and people who have that third culture that’s going on. And so I think that’s going to probably play into the things that we talk about as we talk about what does the culture look like.
But when I was in organizational leadership for a period of time, we talked about culture in very simplistic terms, just trying to boil it down to its essence, which is tough. And you’ll see that, as we discussed this amongst the three of us, that culture being this, “How we do things around here, it’s more caught than taught. It’s that interstitial in the air stuff that’s just what you breathe and what you eat. And it’s like values where the values are put into practice.” So there’s a lot of different ways to talk about it, but yeah, it’s, “How we do things around here,” or if you want to take another famous saying, “You know it when you see it, you know it when you see it.”
And it honestly takes a person from the outside usually to come in and tell you what your culture is. Because you can have all the values you want to up on the wall or on some kind of document or a website or wherever you’re going to put things like that, but until someone actually comes in and tells you, “Yeah, you say that your culture is one of hard work and determination and accountability and trust,” but really it’s one of shirking responsibility and passing the buck and whatever it is. So it’s one of those things that does really often take a third person to come in, which I think is what’s so valuable about Stan and the consulting team more generally that you guys sit and Ken, that you guys can be that third party that comes in. But those are some sort of preliminary, the kickoff conversational items for what culture is from my perspective.
Ken Tan:
Sure. Stan, would love your thoughts. How do you feel about that with what Chris said and some of the things that you have seen in terms of what your perception of workplace culture or even ministry culture is like?
Stan Reiff:
Yeah, I would agree with Chris. It’s a whole lot more than just the platitudes on the wall. It’s more than the posters. A lot of people think that, “Hey, our culture is whatever we put up on the wall,” that quite frankly is irrelevant. Now it can actually help your culture. It reinforces culture if you are doing it intentionally. I like the statement that says, “You want to make sure you have a culture by design, not by accident.” And so again, Chris, to your point, “You know it when you see it,” but around every organization has a culture and neither you’re intentional about it and you’re very structured and formal about being intentional to make it what you want it to be, that discipline or it is what it is and you’re not paying attention. And that culture ends up ruling the organization.
And to your point, I would absolutely agree that third party coming in to observe is really, really critical. So I’ve seen this, I’ve had it modeled and one of the things we actually try to do here, especially when we bring on new staff members, is we try to be really intentional in the first 90 days to communicate what our culture is. And then a lot of times when people start at a job, “Hey, I don’t have a lot to offer. I’m brand new here,” and I always celebrate, “No, you have the most to offer right now, especially in the first 90 days, six months because you’re seeing things the rest of us aren’t seeing.
So as you’re hearing about what the culture is that we aspire to, in 90 days, I want you to tell us how well are we doing. In your experience in the first 90 days, in the first six months, what we say we, what we aspire to be, did you experience that? And if not, where are the gaps?” And again, it’s those fresh eyes and so I talk about fresh eyes in the organization that within, again, that 90 days, six month window, you will lose that keen edge that we desperately need from you. And I think organizations that think that way and build that into their rhythms, not just with new employees, obviously it shifts to retaining employees and staff, but beyond that in an organization, certainly within the church setting, there’s these ripple effects, these circles that just emanate out.
And you really want to be intentional about each one of those circles, one of those spheres of influence and the ripple effect that each one can have on the next one.
Ken Tan:
I think just to add what Stan was saying there too, I think about it from, with culture, there’s still the stewardship aspect, even when we think about … We talk about accounting and the financial stewardship, but this side is the relational side. I think about, from a culture perspective, I perceive as the active responsible care preservation and transmission of values, of vision and even some of the things that we really focus on. And that’s where I think it’s so important that there’s a lot of times when we start, even we talk about some examples of some workplaces we’ve seen, a lot of these ones can easily just been from happenchance or just some of those things where it just accidentally came together.
But then you can see the big differences when there is an intentionality of saying, “Look, we really want to make sure we’re establishing some form of foundation here,” especially for culture because it is so important across all aspects of what we do. Chris, I know you shared in our very first podcast that what Peter Drucker said that culture eats strategy for breakfast. It is-
Chris Purnell:
Breakfast.
Ken Tan:
… absolutely true. And that’s where part of it is what Stan has been doing within our consulting group, it’s really setting that right foundation for all those that are coming through our doors and joining us of establishing what we believe in, how we approach things. And our hope is that, when we get that temperature read, because ultimately, when you’re getting those types of feedback, to an extent, you’re accepting a level of vulnerability of like, “Okay, be honest with us because we want to get a good idea of how are we actually doing when it comes to what we say we’re doing and what we’re actually doing too as well.”
Chris Purnell:
It’s so wise what Stan said and what you’re alluding to, Ken, the idea of not wasting those first 90 days for the employee, not only … We usually think in terms of getting them into the culture or getting the culture into them rather like they need to be able to understand our values and how we work as a company and that sort of thing, which is important. But having them weigh in on what your culture actually is in reality and not just the platitudes and not just the things that are written down for public consumption is a … Well, it takes a certain amount of humility to be able to have someone that is a brand new employee to come in, and to use that I word again, a certain level of intentionality.
I think that, so often, companies, if they’re going to be intentional about anything, which sometimes they’re not intentional about anything, but let’s say they’re going to be intentional about something, they’re intentional about strategy and strategy filters down into tactics and how you get things done and that sort of thing. But what often gets left to the side is culture. And so, Stan, I want to kick it back to you. You talked about how do you be intentional in the various places where you can be intentional. What are some kind of arenas where you think, “Yeah, this is a place where we can exercise some intentional influence as leaders in the church and then we can filter down into various levels of the staff team of the church”?
Because we really want to home in for our church clients, faith-based ministry clients, the staff team culture, how do you develop it no matter where you are in the org chart?
Stan Reiff:
Yeah, Chris, I would say, “Everything rises and falls on leadership,” right? That’s a John Maxwell quote. And so as a leader, and again, you may be the senior pastor or you may be the executive pastor or you may have some other leadership role, to some degree, we all have leadership capacity and responsibilities regardless of where in the organization we are. So culture starts with each one of us individually, but let’s assume we start with the hierarchy, and then at some point, I want to talk about inverting that. But as a senior leader, regardless of the title, it really does start with you, i.e., “You set the tone of culture. So you get reserved parking.” Are you above the regulations, i.e., “My expense report doesn’t get scrutinized. I don’t have to submit receipts. If I say it’s legitimate, it’s legitimate because I said so”?
That kind of atmosphere when the rest of the team is bound by policies and procedures but you’re exempt, you’re above all of that, that really leads towards a more toxic … It breaks down trust and it confuses client engagement because, “Wait, if this is our culture, but you don’t have to follow it, then it really isn’t the culture because you’re the leader.” Beyond that, then certainly, as I’m trying to cascade it out quickly here, Chris, I’m thinking that, as a leader, you’re going to have your own, what I would call your cabinet, your C-suite, those that report to you as a senior leader or you’re on that team, you immediately want to shepherd or steward that together. It’s not one person’s responsibility, but everybody’s responsibility to safeguard the culture and to make sure it’s flourishing.
So how do you live it out? How do you maintain it? Because like vision, like strategy, it leaks out. So it’s a constant stewarding of that core values of the vision, mission, so you’re going to have a mission creep. All of these have a way of being diluted over time. Culture is no different. And so I love working with the organizations who are really intentional. For example, when you’re hiring, instead of the one person doing the hiring, have a mix of people in the organization who are helping to protect and be aware of, “Here’s the kind of profile of person we’re looking for. We are looking for diversity of thought and experience, but does their character align? Can they embrace the culture?”
And there’s a few tidbits there we might come back to that you can always identify within a person, “Will they be a part of the culture healthy?” versus there’s various characteristics or character traits you notice immediately that, “You know what? There’s going to be a challenge here.” But then certainly as you work as a leadership team to embrace your vision, mission, core values, your policies, procedures as your culture, then they need to take it to the next level. And it keeps rippling through the various levels of leadership, so that certainly a church setting, everybody on staff understands it. You’re repeating it frequently. It’s not just one person that’s the guru, but everybody embraces it, everybody’s responsible.
Then it flows into the volunteers and then in a church setting goes into the congregation that ultimately what starts at the core becomes part of the community when you think of a particular church, “This is how they behave. This is how they act. These are their known behaviors,” and it creates the artifacts, the reality of not just platitudes, but, “Here’s what you will experience,” and there’s a common element to those artifacts.
Ken Tan:
Well, Stan, I wanted you to share a little bit more about that term cultural artifacts because I’m sure a lot of folks that are listening probably have heard of that just on a higher level, but it’s so interesting that you brought that up because I think it’s so pertinent for a lot of leaders, especially ministries and churches to hear what that is because it really does stay there even longer than what you anticipate, so share a bit more about that cultural artifact, Stan.
Stan Reiff:
Yeah, so there’s a variety. Let me give you two or three examples. When I was living in North Pole and teaching at the mission school in Fairbanks, one of the core values was excellence and professionalism. And we would be in our classrooms looking outside while the head of school would be out policing the yard at the parking lot for garbage. And it would embarrass us, but he was committed to it and just because he was the head of school didn’t mean everybody else has to, I will. And certainly, while we’re all teaching, he didn’t expect us to leave the classroom.
But as teachers, we would all get together and say, “Okay, hey, let’s take turns before school, during lunch, after school and then police it, so the head of school doesn’t have to.” And that became a reality of an artifact of, “If we don’t do it, the head of school will. And oh by the way, and he’s not opposed to doing it, he’s not too good, he’s not too high-ranking to do it.” Chick-fil-A is another classic example where, if you’re at their support center, it’s not unusual for the executive team or even family members to come by your table and either refresh your drink or take your tray of when you’re done with lunch and take it to the dishwashing area. And so for the CEO, the president to do that, it’s almost embarrassing, but it demonstrates servant leadership. So those become artifacts.
I think another one, two of them, one would be Chick-fil-A and one would be even for us at CapinCrouse where there was an intentionality several years ago to move away from the term at Chick-fil-A of corporate or home office and they rebranded as support center. We exist to support all the stores. We’re the support center for everybody out doing direct ministry. As a quorum, we don’t have a home office. We have central services. Now part of it is because we’re all remote. Our managing partner, our partner in charge is in Boston, our CFO’s in Denver, chief technology person’s down in Louisiana and on and on it goes. So it makes sense for us to have central services, but that denotes, that becomes an artifact that we don’t have a centralized location in one place that everybody reports to, but rather it’s distributed and it’s central services to support all the partners and all the staff around the us.
Those have become the artifacts of reality against the platitudes on a wall or in a printed document.
Chris Purnell:
Stan, that’s really good. And as I heard you talking about those kind of artifacts and those stories that put into technicolor, the words that we can sometimes throw around but can lose their punch. If I sit on this podcast and say something like servant leadership, well, that has become a little bit of a neutered term in some ways because it just doesn’t have the same punch as it may have had 40, 50 years ago, but now it’s so in the water that it’s difficult to really give it that power again. But to have someone that’s in the C-suite come down to the cafeteria and remove plates and refresh people’s beverages and that sort of thing, that’s a story that will actually really slap at the end of the day, right? It’s fantastic. It’s fantastic.
And so I think about, how do you move those kinds of words that may not have as much power on their own like excellence and professionalism? Again, that can sound like so much corporate speak. What are some ways that you think through, “Okay, how can I get these terms back into a space where they’re going to have some punch again?” Is it through telling those stories? Is it through those actions? Is it through something else? What are some ways you’ve seen it made it more effective?
Stan Reiff:
Yeah, great question, Chris. So I think I’ll throw in some personal things along with this. I do think actually sometimes actually keeping those terms, but then just defining them and then creating the artifacts that go with those. So for example, I love culture and legacy and core values. And so as a family, we developed core values for our family about 20 years ago. And then we reduce them down to, “Hey, there’s a lot of other things that are important to us, but there’s five values on how we behave,” what’s important to us and we came up with a two-word statement for each one of those and then we actually have a sentence of a subtitle that defines those.
So for example, financial margin is one that’s important to us and we define that as learn how to live on lesson you make so you always have enough. Okay, well then how did we enforce that? Well, it’s through storytelling. It’s through reinforcement of, “Hey, does this really match that core value?” So you’re now teaching to it, you’re modeling it and you’re celebrating when you see it happen.
Chris Purnell:
That’s good. That’s good.
Stan Reiff:
Those are the kinds of things that, as a family, we meet regularly, but certainly on a quarterly basis, we meet officially or formally to talk about these core values and how to instill them in the next generation. We talk about accountability, right? And whether it’s servant leadership and whatnot, authentic leadership, that comes with accountability. Well, here’s an artifact. So my former boss at Crown used to create these little medallions, challenge coins, that had the values for Crown Financial Ministries. And there, five values were external, five were internal. So each side of the coin had the five. And anytime he caught somebody doing that well, he would give them a coin. He kept them in his pocket.
And you would have that challenge going. You could keep it as long as you wanted, but if you saw somebody else modeling doing one of those values, then you could pass it on to that person. Well, since then, Dave Ray retired and he continued to be my executive coach for 10, 12 years and he developed a new coin and I actually keep this on my desk. And it’s what I call my band of brothers that I’m accountable. When I travel, I take it with me. And not a week goes by that somebody who’s not in my accountability group doesn’t text me a picture saying, “Hey, I’m in such and such a city. I’m jumping on a plane. I just want to let you know, I want to be accountable to you how I’m on this trip.”
Now we think of accountability sometimes as drudgery, as judgmental, as hard. Now we do it as a celebration. And so again, the artifact is this, the behavior’s accountability and the humility to say, “You know what? I want to finish strong and I can’t do it alone. I need my brothers around me.”
Chris Purnell:
Wow, that’s good.
Ken Tan:
I love that. And it’s one of those things that you start even thinking about, Stan, and I have that coin too as well and it’s an honor to have that because part of it is that accountability. You start thinking about those healthy traits of a healthy culture too and that trust and accountability is so important, especially when it comes to that modeling from senior leadership. So honestly, in full canter, Stan, I look up to you especially as our practice leader in the consulting group and a lot of what you’re doing is stuff that really does resonate within our team. And it’s one of the things that many of our, I guess, younger leaders as well are hoping to be able to continue building that too as well because we also look at our even younger team members to hopefully carry on that baton as well.
We want to be able to create that ability of accountability and as well as that level of trust because we talk about those toxic environments, which I know we’ll talk about a little bit. And it’s almost the exact opposite of what you see from a trust and accountability side too. And it’s unfortunate that you do see that in a ministry setting as well. And it’s so important for us to be mindful of how we are navigating things, because if not, we could easily stray along that road too without even realizing until it’s too late too. And so that’s where I’m just curious about this too, Stan, because we do certain things and maybe this is …
Chris, you haven’t heard about all that we do in the consulting group, but especially when it comes to rhythms and practices and overall, you hear the term rituals and all, what do you think are some things, especially for us in a for-profit side do you think could be good things for even just church leaders or even staff to consider implementing in their own workplaces as well from a culture side that I think could even just be a small thing that hopefully gradually becomes a regular occurrence that ultimately they really want to have fully into what they’re doing on a daily basis?
Stan Reiff:
Well, certainly, I’ll focus on the church for this one, but certainly it applies in the not-for-profit setting, but in some ways, a church is more difficult. In some ways, it’s easier. In a church setting, you’ve got a captive audience every week that comes in, but your staff meetings, again, I think it’s really important at your staff meetings to keep reminding everybody, “Why do we exist as a church? What is our number one priority? Why do we want people to experience when they come to visit for the first time? What do we need to do to get them to come back a second time?”
So you’re casting vision constantly, which becomes your culture. So what are we doing and is everything we do as individuals help achieve that culture, that vision, mission that we have? And I bring the three of those together, “What’s our vision? Where is it we want to go?” Number two, “How are we going to get there?” and then the core values are the behaviors that get us there. And so I love the term, the front office receptionist, the director of first impressions. When somebody walks in, when somebody is calling in, what’s that first impression like? And the importance of that, it’s not just an admin position, it really is important. And so how do you measure that and how do they become a part of that culture of where you’re going as an organization, not just a support staff. So the more you can communicate that consistently.
Ken, you’ll recall, even as a consulting group for I think the first year, I was the one that was always going through our vision, mission, core values. And when I get through, I’d start all over again. Chris, as part of the ownership group, you’ll recall, every time we’d get together, Chris saying or Ken, “That was one of the things that I always do as part of the ownership group, was reviewing who we are to stay focused, to stay grounded.” But then beyond that, then I realized, “You know what? It can’t just be me. It’s got to be the whole team.” So now everybody on our leadership team in consulting takes a turn. And so usually twice a year, maybe three times a year, “You’re responsible for teaching some element of this every time we meet twice a month.”
So eventually the entire staff is hearing it consistently day in and day out and they’re hearing it from different voices because it’s not in unison, it’s in harmony. Everybody’s experience will be different, but the passion and understanding should be similar. And so we’re really keen on that, but then beyond that, just thinking through the church, make sure your staff understand that, but then your staff are communicating with your volunteers and your volunteers and staff are interacting with the congregation. So whatever’s really important to you, you’ve got to communicate regularly, not just from the pulpit, because if you’re a senior leader and you see something from the pulpit, but the rest of the staff aren’t living it, if your volunteers aren’t behaving that way, your congregation, well, I use the language, it doesn’t pass the snicker test.
“This is who we are. We are for our community.” “No, we’re not. We don’t want strangers coming in, we don’t want this happening. The way you’re treating all of us is not reflective of why the community would come.” So again, our core values, whether it’s at a family level, at a church level or as a ministry, are we really living these out? And again, it comes back to a third party has to tell you that. So as a church, you have some way to engage those volunteer … Whether it’s volunteers, “Is your experience here consistent with our core values? As a first time guest or a second time guest or at some point, how was your experience? Were you welcomed? Did you feel that you belonged?”
All those kinds of things make a difference. And again, you can do it intentionally or just haphazardly. It happens and people may or may not, but it’s not sustainable if you’re not being intentional and disciplined about it.
Chris Purnell:
Yeah.
Ken Tan:
I’ll add here Chris, so Stan might be able to show it. I don’t know if he has that pop quiz, but all the leaders in our CapinCrouse consulting group has a laminated sheet of our mission, vision and core values. And it’s something that’s so important for us, because again, this is something that we want to make sure that repetition really helps us when it comes to … See, Stan is showing it right now. And what’s been great is, in our consulting group, retreats as well. We are making sure with our own team that we’re enforcing, not enforcing, reiterating a lot of what we believe in because it is so important for us. And then even factoring a great example is when we’re welcoming two new team members into our group.
I was actually in person when I was welcoming some of our new team members and I mentioned, “Our mission, we are empowered professionals providing innovative services to organizations whose outcomes are measured and lives changed.” It was interesting, they thought that I was just trying to really just say that for the sake of saying it. And then Stan gets on the call, without any cue, talks about our mission is, repeats it. It’s like word for word. And I think that’s where it really stuck through about how consistent we are about being intentional about what our mission is.
And that’s where I think it’s so important for a lot of our own ministries and nonprofits and churches that we serve that they need to be able to understand what are you for and what are you known for and things like that. “How do you do it when you do your own inventory of what people perceive your ministry? How would you be able to describe it and is it in line with truly how you’re acting?” And I think that’s why it’s so important when we talk about things like that, even from our side, how we think it’s also important for the ministry side too as well.
Chris Purnell:
Well, and it’s so powerful too because you have a couple of things that are stacking together to create this beautiful reality of a culture that’s working in itself out in practice. And the first one is, yes, you need to have some kind of terminology, some kind of lexicon, but that’s almost like step one. And that’s honestly where many organizations, if they step into this, at any rate, that’s where they stop.
They’re like, “All right, we’ve got some nice words, but we’re going to shelve it. But what you’re talking about here, both Stan and Ken, is not only do we have this nomenclature, this lexicon, these words, but then we define the terms and then we reinforce the terms in various ways, whether it’s through illustrations, whether it’s through stories, whether it’s through physical, tangible objects that we can point to and say, “Yes, this helps define the reality that we’re trying to express through words,” but also ownership at the top.
I’m hearing a lot about ownership from the top that, yes, Stan as the EVP was the one who had to eat, sleep, breathe the values and the desire for what this team culture is going to look like, but then sharing that ownership so that way the other partners in the consulting group could have that same kind of passion but own it in different ways. Because you’re right, people have different demeanors. And so some person’s passion might look like a level 10, zany, jumping up on couches, that kind of stuff, but then some people with a different demeanor, it’s going to look a little bit different, a little more subdued and so they’re going to own it in a different way.
And I knew, when I was an organizational leader, that this stuff had really filtered down when I saw not just like the receptionist or the director of first impressions, I love that, when I saw that person say something that was a culture value, but actually live out the culture value. So for instance, one of our cultural values back in my old organization was the second mile and it was in reference to Jesus in the Sermon on the Mount where he said, “Carry the items for a second mile,” and that we went above and beyond for our clients. And I remember seeing the director of first impressions, our receptionist, going above and beyond for a particular client when they didn’t have to. And it was powerful.
And you could tell that it was not just words that were coming down, but it was also actions and activity and it was changing the way that people behaved, so that way they’re coming aligned with culture. So I’m hearing a lot of really solid wisdom from you guys.
Ken Tan:
I think, Stan, even just another example on a great way that we’ve even seen it within our group is, a lot of our own team members, they’re not asking for any praises for this, but it’s one of the things that we’ve observed that we’ve seen at least a couple of times where they were interacting with their client contact and they noticed that there was just something that was on their minds, the client’s minds. And after just some conversations, ultimately, they were just opening up and our team members were able to pray for them during that period and they were able to step back from a period of just focusing on the professional side and saying, “Look, we really do care about you.”
And that’s where it just really, I would say, always brings a big smile on my face when I see our team members doing something like that because it’s nothing. They don’t have to do that at the end of the day, right? They can just reconcile the book. They can just do the debits and credits, but they go that extra mile of really being for their clients that our clients can see, especially the care that our team members have when it comes to even just being willing to pray for them, saying, “How can I pray for you? How are things going in general?” And that’s not saying that we have to be super personal in what we do, but just essentially showing that we do care really goes a lot into what I think about is our culture of what we are trying to do too as well and how our own team members are taking it in their own perspectives of making an impact in how they serve our clients too.
Stan Reiff:
To add to that, I’ve had the incredible opportunity to work with some incredible leaders who created some fantastic cultures. And because my age and my experiences, it allows me to blend some of those together to live out here with you guys. And so one of those would be it’s a formalized plan, if you will, Jeff Henderson wrote the book, Know What You’re For, which is all about being for your staff, your team members, your clients if you will, your congregation, your community, so many applications. But as part of that, I’ll just reiterate, especially as a leader leading your team, because it has the greatest impact. Because for example, now I do have a lot of client-facing interactions about half to three-fourths of my time is client-facing, but not every person’s always client-facing.
But a couple of things I’ve learned is I can delegate my responsibility for other people to help, but I can’t delegate my authority. At the end of the day, I’m responsible. I can then trust other people to do things, but at the end of the day, if it goes wrong, it’s my authority. I can delegate authority but not the responsibility. So I keep that in mind. As part of that, yeah, I’ve always thought about, “How do I …” Knowing that collectively the entire team that works with us, Ken, is that 30+ now folks, almost 40 folks maybe?
Ken Tan:
Over 30, yes, almost 40 now.
Stan Reiff:
They have a lot more client interactions than I do collectively. So, “How do I invest in the team, so they’re the best representative of the firm and hopefully of my leadership?” And so there’s things that I’ve done over time that have been done for me. And really quick, the illustration would be, “I want to create a culture where the employees become the best possible version of themselves professionally, relationally, emotionally in a 360 perspective.” I challenge the staff and they join and on a regular basis that, “I will have failed you if you’re not being recruited with some regularity of the firm. You go to work elsewhere because you’re not the best yet. I haven’t done my job.”
That being said, I want to create a culture that, no matter how many times you’re recruited, you don’t want to leave because you can’t replace this anywhere else. And I want to live in that tension. It’s not a problem to solve. It’s a tension I have to manage that. And if I make them the best, everybody’s going to try to steal them away, but I’ll make it such a great place that nobody wants to leave. But then I also recognize, at some point, especially all of us in the faith community, God will always call all of us away at some point.
Chris Purnell:
Amen.
Stan Reiff:
And when he does, then, “I want you to leave with our blessing because we’ve made you the best version of yourself that God created you to be with the understanding that, when you leave, you’ll always talk about your experience here, that it was the best place you’ve ever worked and you’ll become the best ambassador for who we are and what we do, even if you’re somewhere else because God called you to do something somewhere else.” And so that becomes the healthy culture that I aspire all the time to build. Now have I arrived? I don’t know that I have. That’s one of those aspirational things that there’s always room for improvement, but that’s one of the gauges, one way that I see creating a healthy culture is lived out in a practical way.
Chris Purnell:
That’s good.
Ken Tan:
I love it.
Chris Purnell:
That’s good.
Ken Tan:
And even thinking about that, Stan, I think it was a blessing for CapinCrouse, we had been recognized as a best Christian workplace for a number of years, which is something that is just based on purely anonymous surveys that were submitted by our own team members. And again, I’m not saying that we are perfect, but that’s where part of is we are striving towards the ability to help really create thriving environments. And it’s not just a, “Set it and forget it,” thing. You always have to keep checking in and seeing, “How are we doing? Do we need to pivot? Do we need to adjust?” And I think, to an extent, it is something we have to handle on a daily basis of just making sure we’re continuing to emphasize our values there too.
I’m thinking about all the great things that we have talked about of the healthy sides. I’m interested too as well on the not so healthy as well, Stan, and I’m curious as to what you’ve seen on the opposite because I have been so grateful that, over the last almost seven years I’ve had the chance to work with you in this in terms of being able to build this type of culture for our team, I know a lot of it has come from seeing from our past that what we have seen may not have been as healthy. And so I’m curious just from what you observed, especially from clients or even just some interesting settings as to what could be the opposite of what you’ve seen because I think we could probably come with a couple of examples of what may be considered a toxic environment?
Stan Reiff:
Yeah. My guess is it wouldn’t take maybe five seconds if that long for each of us come up with an experience and the right environment, a client or our own experience where it was just toxic. And it can be defined as you didn’t want to go to work, you didn’t feel trusted, you didn’t feel empowered, you didn’t feel like you had an opportunity that you belong. There’s all these emotions that are probably legitimate. Emotions are legitimate. And there’s a reason [inaudible 00:48:10]. I think, a lot of times, it really does start with leadership at the top. Tone at the top is one of the-
Ken Tan:
Absolutely.
Stan Reiff:
… core things from the accounting perspective. But as soon as the leader places him outside of the boundaries that, “I don’t have to do this because I am,” list the title, “I don’t have to do this. Do not challenge me,” or, “You don’t hold other people accountable,” or, “You’re indifferent.” How many times do leaders really get to know their staff at a variety of levels? I realize the larger the organization, at some point, it’s hard to get to know everybody, but you should know at least 50 or a hundred people within your closest circle regardless of the size of the organization. And I say that it’s more than just their performance evaluation, their salary, their title, but, “Are they married? Do they have a family? What do you know about the family?
What do you know about their personal interests? What about their aspirational goals? Where do they want to be in five years? What are you doing to engage them? And certainly from a faith perspective, are you engaging them and challenging them in their faith? Are you being honest and transparent about your own faith journey?” Because at the end of the day, a lot of this does rise and fall on leadership and it has to do with your own personal emotional health, personal psychological health, spiritual health. Because when you’re burned out, when you’re discouraged, when you’re emotionally drained, when you’re physically exhausted, when you’re not thinking clearly, and we certainly understand from psychology that at some point you revert to more of a self-preservation when you’re not engaged with the rest of the team and so your lack of health will literally bring down an organization.
So there’s the healthy aspect, but then there’s that, again, I come back to the cultural artifacts of, “Here’s what we say, but this is not what we do.” And so those are literally just disciplines that you’ve got to retool. And then I think one of the key things that I see is in creating a healthy culture, but the inverse is what we’re talking about, but if you are at a point where you can actually instill or portray trust in somebody, regardless of the circumstance that says, “You want something about haywire here. I know this person and they would’ve not done that intentionally. They would’ve not have done that maliciously. I believe that there’s got to be some good reason for why this happened,” and you communicate that broadly, everybody appreciates that, then you get to hear the story because the reality is we have good people.
And if you have that as one of your cultural definitions, then people know that it’s safe. “I made this decision based on this information and I’ll do this regularly.” “Explain to me how you made the decision. And if it was bad data, we’ll get you good data. If it was a flawed decision, then we’ll help with training on how to make good decisions.” But sometimes we have good data, good decisions and it ends up bad and we report all over again because it is what it is. Now, we might do it differently in hindsight, but given the circumstances that we did it all right, then it’s just one of those outcomes that is different than what we expected. But that kind of training and understanding as a leader, that gives the benefit of the doubt to everybody on your team, reduces the distrust. It reduces some of that inner company gossip, if you will, and just that disengages people.
And those are the things that really lead to that toxic environment where everybody’s now just trying to protect their own and just get by until they can find a better place to go.
Ken Tan:
That’s right.
Stan Reiff:
That’s an indicator right there is, if you have a high turnover rate, there’s a good chance you’ve got a toxic environment.
Chris Purnell:
Right, right.
Stan Reiff:
All that reminds me is their manager.
Chris Purnell:
That’s right. That’s right. And it reminds me of that Lencioni quote that, “People don’t leave organizations. They leave managers.”
Stan Reiff:
Bosses.
Chris Purnell:
“They leave bosses.” That’s right. And if you’ve got a boss who has drifted into self-preservation mode, maybe the story they’re telling themselves is that, “No one cares as much as I do,” or, “I just feel really under the gun,” or they’ve slipped into a space of emotional or spiritual or physical unhealth, it’s going to lead to those types of results that you mentioned. Hopefully, it’s not going to be cataclysmic. Hopefully, there’s enough accountability surrounding them that someone will call them out or some people will call them out, but not in a way to jeopardize the organization or jeopardize their reputation or jeopardize them, but rather to a space of health.
So I’m curious for you, Stan, what you’ve seen senior leadership do to stay in a space of health or if they have drifted into a space of unhealth, what are some kind of patterns and practices and/or just disciplines and systems that senior leadership can put in place so that it’s going to make it much less likely that they’re just going to blow something up because they drifted into unhealth?
Stan Reiff:
Yeah, I would certainly say as a leader, you have to understand that the standards are much higher for you than everybody else in the organization. So you just have to accept that responsibility and that reality. And because of that, you’re held at much higher standard, you need to hold yourself to much higher standard. And again, this isn’t judgmental, it’s not drudgery. It’s actually a privilege. Some people say leadership is lonely at the top. It doesn’t have to be. So I start by saying, “I have accountability partners. I have executive coaches. I have more than one different areas of expertise, call for different people, which add to the influence in my life that they will call me out.”
But beyond that, so like I said, the executive coaching is just critical, “Hey, I need to think through this. Help me think through this. What am I missing?” and the humility to go in and say, “I’m not excelling in this area. What do I need to do different?” And it can be sometimes just external issues outside of your work, your profession that’s influencing it. Sometimes it’s your work that’s influencing outside your family, your faith, other relationships. So it can go both ways, but then beyond that, certainly, at least on an annual basis, stop and [inaudible 00:54:36]. Usually that last week of the year for me is I’m doing additional personal assessments to understand myself better.
I actually have a psychologist that I work with as well on an annual basis to help me think through, “Where am I?” because I’m going to have blind spots. If I knew about them, they wouldn’t be blind spots, right?
Ken Tan:
Yeah.
Stan Reiff:
“What is [inaudible 00:54:59]?” Yeah, I suspect I do, I engage a variety of experts in my life to be my executive coaches and I think that’s critical to acknowledge, “Hey, I’m on a journey. I’m not there. I have a lot to learn,” and so it’s safeguards for me personally, it’s safeguards for my family, it’s safeguards for the team by saying, “I need strong leadership around me, accountability from faith, accountability professionally, accountability from a psychological, just a wholeness along with just medical professionals who also come along, so I had to make sure that,” my analogy is I’m a car guy, “the car I’m driving, the God gave me, I only get the one and when it wears out and it’s working, it’s all over. The next vehicle will be out of this world, but walk from this way, but I got to make sure I’m taking care of the body God gave me.” And that’s a new discipline for me as of last year.
Ken Tan:
Yeah, I think just to add on here because, Stan, you and I, we interact with a lot of consulting engagements and a lot of it ends up being this triage where we are having to open up underneath the hood of what’s happening at the organization. And there’s a lot that I’ve done. As an example, there was an organization where I hopped in there because they said they were just dealing with so much staff turnover left and right. The board was having issues with trusting them at that point. And honestly, it was one of those things where I had to have a heart to heart with that leader of saying, “I know you want to make changes here, but it has to start with you.” And that was a tough pill for them to swallow.
Thankfully, they were able to salvage things, but it took essentially, we use this term, “We operate at the speed of trust,” it took a lot of working to get that trust rebuilt, because again, there were so much trauma and scars from what has happened over those years. There are times where you almost have to say, “You have to clean shop almost entirely, because if not, this will continue to grow deep within other folks.” I say one of the things is that level of humility. There have been times that we have served in those advisory engagements where we help interview incoming CFOs or incoming leaders and we notice that the ones that think that they know better ultimately start implementing a culture that may not actually be healthy overall because they’re not willing to say, “Hey, I don’t know what I don’t know, but I would love to sit there and figure it out with you.”
And those are ones that we end up coming back a couple of times because of the fact that there are situations that don’t change and it ultimately comes back to the leader itself. And so that’s where I think what you’ve said there, Stan, multiple times and, Chris, I think it’s just being reiterated that it does really start at the top and is that leader willing to make those necessary changes to help shift the way the ministry needs to go? And if not, there are certain things that we’ll see ultimately becomes unfortunately a textbook case of what we have seen for other organizations that reach that point of a downward spiral that is so hard to recover.
Chris Purnell:
Yeah.
Stan Reiff:
There’s a couple of things I’ll add to that, Ken. I think one of the things, we keep talking about the leadership and that pyramid, but I think two things are really critical. One is it’s an inverted pyramid where servant leadership … It comes back to you Chris, at the very beginning, “What does servant leadership mean?” I talk about all the time, my job is to remove the barriers for the rest of the team to be successful. I’m not here to tell them what to do. I already trust them. They know what to do, but if there’s something that’s keeping them from being successful, it’s my job to remove it. If there’s something that they need to be successful, it’s my job to provide it.
So I see myself as at the bottom of the pyramid to serve everybody above me. And so I think that’s just critical. And if you observe organizations that are healthy and thriving, it’s because they have a leader that’s leading that way instead of top down, “I’m in charge. Do it my way all the time.” The other thing I would say, and Ken alluded to this, that’s one of the unique things we have at CapinCrouse to be honest with you, because we realize culture is so important to an organization’s success, and certainly, we see it from the vantage point of the business office, if you will. And we serve so many clients in the business office. We actually have culture experts who train on this, are certified on this, and then we as a team are the guinea pigs of trying things out, whether it’s 12 surveys on, “How’s the team doing every 90 days? How you feel engaged at work? What’s stressing you out at work?” all these kinds of things.
But then we can replicate this as we fine-tune it with our clients along with a lot of assessments, because as Kim was saying, a lot of times we come in to do the triage, “Stop the bleeding, get them some oxygen, get them stabilized,” and then we do, and then it repeats itself and realize, “There’s a culture issue here. Now we can come in and address the root issue, not just the symptoms.” Because at the end of the day, one of our artifacts is we’ll never charge a client more value than the value that we bring first. And so we want to make sure we understand what’s going on with the client and we’re serving them well with what they really need, not just with a perceived need or a symptom.
Ken Tan:
I love it. And, Stan, I know it’s one of those things where, again, this is so pertinent for us because it is what we do on a daily basis in terms of how we serve our clients. It is, of course, we’re doing advisory work, we’re doing executive comp studies, we’re doing monthly accounting. At the end of the day, we’re also impacting with them on their culture because they are also seeing how we are interacting with them, the testimony that we are also showing as a part of our interaction on a daily basis. And my hope is a lot of times our clients are saying, “There’s something different about these team members at CapinCrouse and how they are interacting with us.” Because of course, there are accounts left and right, right?
There are so many different firms that they could have chosen, but then so many of them have chosen CapinCrouse because of the way we have served and how we have approached things. And I think that’s where our culture plays an even bigger role in just ultimately underneath the, [inaudible 01:01:05], under the hood of why we are so passionate and how we serve our clients too. I know with that, Stan, I’m thinking about just landing the plane as part of this is we try to think about, what are some considerations for you in terms of a challenge or even encouragement for leaders, and some final words in terms of especially when you think about culture, what are some things that you feel like you can help encourage them, especially as they’re going through this journey too, whether it’s a new pastor or a new ministry leader or one that has been there for a good bit of time and trying to help get them ready for the next succession as well?
Stan Reiff:
Yeah, Ken, great question. Let see if I can keep this simple. My head’s spinning with a lot of ideas, but I will tie into your last statement that has become one of our cultural artifacts. That is fun when new employees have about 90 days, they’ll remark, “You guys really do mean that term, ‘Serving our clients,'” which is unusual, but words matter, so that’s where I’m going with that, that we talk about serving our clients, steering those relationships well. If we serve them well, then God will entrust more clients to us. So that’s really important. So words matter. Defining those is really important. I would say, as a leader, I don’t think we can underestimate the power of servant leadership to start with the humility to say, “Wow, I am responsible. I can delegate authority to get things done, but at the end of the day, the way the culture ends up being is my responsibility.”
And so it starts by, “Where are we, honest look? What do we need to do to fix it?” recognizing it can be several years to get that turned around, but you start with the inner circle and you work out by learning to serve others, so that everybody is flourishing and thriving. And that’s an important part. If you have flourishing and thriving individuals, your culture will be thriving and flourishing as well.
Chris Purnell:
[inaudible 01:03:07]. Yeah.
Ken Tan:
I love it. And part of it, it’s never too late to look into this. It’s never too late to make changes, right, Chris? You start thinking about, I just put the little thing about football, thinking about Indiana football. It was something where it was struggling for decades and then a new leader comes in, implements a whole new culture, brings in some great leaders there to help on the field, and look, there’s a national championship.
Chris Purnell:
That’s right, that’s right.
Ken Tan:
[inaudible 01:03:33] there for you, Chris.
Chris Purnell:
Can I appreciate that? Yeah, Indiana is a football state now and I feel like, every time we talk about this, you’re right, we lose probably about half our subscribers in the SCC.
Ken Tan:
[inaudible 01:03:42] will say something.
Chris Purnell:
But that’s okay. It’s okay because it’s just true. Indiana, the most losing organization in the country turns it around, goes 16-0, which is the first time it’s been done since 1895. I’m certain there’s going to be leadership books aplenty and all kinds of talks that are given regarding what Curt Cignetti and Fernando Mendoza and all the other guys that were part and parcel of that culture and that shift. But I think that we’ll probably see are some of the things we’ve talked about here. And the big one, accountability, trust and clarity, clarity. I think that what Cignetti did in an almost comical fashion was just the culture of high accountability.
The brother was never pleased. He was never pleased. And it was only when they actually won the national championship where he sat down and said, “I think it’s time for me to go have a beer and that’s how I’m going to celebrate, and then the next day, I’m going to wake up and get back on it.” So it’s an interesting thing, but that’s a man who eats, sleeps and breathes the culture. And as we’ve been talking about today, the importance of the tone at the top and how that leader needs to be almost the emblematic ambassador for the culture that they want to see enacted in the culture or in the organization. So I think that that’s something that will be seen in more and more organizations.
And my hope is that this podcast will be a helpful guide and a jumping-off point for churches and faith-based organizations as they thinking about their own culture, to start with candor, name reality, right? “We really want our culture to be X,” but honestly, it’s more about self-protection and self-preservation and circling the wagons or whatever the case may be. And so I hope that they are both encouraged by the podcast knowing that several of us have been in that seat and we know lots of people who have been in those chairs, but at the same time, you have to start off with being candid about where you are before you can move on to where the Lord wants to put you.
Ken Tan:
Absolutely. Well, again, I’m so excited again about just continuing on with this podcast. Stan, thank you so much for being-
Chris Purnell:
Hear, hear.
Ken Tan:
… on this podcast with us. I’m so grateful to get to serve with you. Chris, I hope you’re ready to be a guinea pig with me with our upcoming episode that does talk about especially different ways, different personalities in a workplace and how that all works together because it does all intertwine together.
Chris Purnell:
We need each other. That’s right.
Ken Tan:
We do. Yes, we do. Awesome. Well, hey, you all take care and look forward to our next episode together.
Stan Reiff:
Thanks again, guys.
Chris Purnell:
Bye guys.
Stan Reiff:
Appreciate it.
Chris Purnell:
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