Nonprofit Resources
Margin for Mission Podcast S1:E5 – Work Life Balance – Transcript
Ken Tan:
Welcome to Margin for Mission, the CRI CapinCrouse Podcast where two friends, Ken and Chris, bring you real talk about creating space for what matters most. Because when your organization has financial and operational margin, you can focus on your mission with confidence.
Chris Purnell:
We’re professionals who’ve spent years helping churches, higher education institutions, and other mission-focused nonprofit organizations manage their accounting, tax, compliance and other challenges. We understand the complexities you face and we’re here to make it simpler.
Ken Tan:
In each episode, we’ll dive into practical insights on leadership operations and the everyday challenges of running a nonprofit without the jargon.
Chris Purnell:
And we’ll talk about life too, family, faith, quite a bit of football, and finding balance in a world that rarely slows down.
Ken Tan:
So whether you’re managing budgets, leading teams, or just trying to keep your mission moving forward, you’re in the right place.
Chris Purnell:
This is Margin for mission. Let’s get started.
Ken Tan:
Well, hello there, Chris. How are you doing over there?
Chris Purnell:
Ken, doing great. It’s another day of the Margin for Mission Podcast.
Ken Tan:
Oh yeah.
Chris Purnell:
Just talk to my good friend, Ken and get to see that you are in another location, it looks like.
Ken Tan:
Can you believe I’m not in your home in a virtual background? I am not in this CRI CapinCrouse workspace right now.
Chris Purnell:
Thanks be to God.
Ken Tan:
It’s one of those things, as you can clearly tell, just probably like what I mentioned before, I travel a good bit, and so now it’s kind of the, “Where’s Ken now?” Right? And I guess I’ll give a couple of hints, right?
Chris Purnell:
Yeah. Then I’ll just guess.
Ken Tan:
Okay, so this is a Midwestern city. It has a river that flows through it. It actually is known for this giant arch right in the middle, and I’m actually at the hotel near that giant arch that is a national monument too as well. So also know that-
Chris Purnell:
Tracking with you.
Ken Tan:
Let’s see. Let’s see. Let’s see. The sports teams here are the Cardinals. They do not have a football team anymore because that football team up and packed and left. So any thoughts on where I could be?
Chris Purnell:
For shame, for shame. Well, when you were mentioning the large river that flows through it, I thought to myself, “Well, maybe Ken’s in my neck of the woods and Terre Haute, Indiana-
Ken Tan:
Who’d have thought.
Chris Purnell:
The mighty Wabash, the mighty Wabash flows through and is very, very clean no matter what the natives say. But you mentioned the arch, you mentioned the baseball team, you mentioned the football team that moved to sunnier climes over there on the West Coast. Are you in St. Louis?
Ken Tan:
I am in St. Louis. And so being able to enjoy a little bit of barbecue here as well, but for me, I guess, this probably gets a lot of folks riled up, but nothing beats a Texas barbecue to me. I love my Texas barbecue.
Chris Purnell:
I cannot disagree. I have heard tell of St. Louis barbecue, KC barbecue, Memphis barbecue. I get it. Every place has to have its own spin on things. But at the end of the day, get me down to Dallas, get me down to Austin, Texas for some brisket. In fact, I was just talking with my kids about this yesterday. We’re planning on making a trip down there soon and man, there’s nothing like it.
Ken Tan:
I know it’s one of those things where every time I go back from Texas, I have to essentially do some type of cleanse or fasting because if not… Some other folks, they’re a lot more blessed than me in terms of the ability just to not have to worry about that. I just think about eating food and I definitely gain weight. So that’s just my life, it’s my burden to bear.
Chris Purnell:
It is a cross, that’s for sure. Any of that brisket and ribs and…
Ken Tan:
Oh man, you’re making me hungry right now and it’s only in the morning right now here in St. Louis, but-
Chris Purnell:
Let’s take a break. Let’s take a break, go get some brisket.
Ken Tan:
And now onto our commercial, it’d be on barbecue.
Oh man, well, typically, as you can probably tell that for us, we love to have a good time here at CapinCrouse. It’s one of the things that it’s a blessing that we do get the ability to use technology because just like you said, Chris, you’re in Terre Haute, Indiana, I’m normally in Atlanta. And outside of my typical unusual four-hour commute… When I say my four-hour commute is simply, it’s just the 45 minute drive to the airport, my two-hour flight and then my 45 minute drive to the hotel from the airport. Typically, my own commute is about a 15 minute walk from my bedroom after I get ready in the morning to the kitchen to get my breakfast, my coffee, and then head and walk over to my home office. And I guess that might be the same case for you, Chris. What is your commute every day?
Chris Purnell:
Stressful.
Ken Tan:
Stressful, right?
Chris Purnell:
It is stressful. Wake up. Sometimes I’ll change into some other clothes if I’m going to be on camera a lot during the day, at least a top, like a really solid button-up or maybe one of these guys, a branded CapinCrouse top, and then just hang out in my home office, which you can now see we have the blinders off. You can see where I reside. I would spin the camera around and just show you how many books are on these bookshelves. I had to get to the point where I’m now double stacking these books much to my wife’s chagrin. She covets your prayers. But yeah, it’s a lovely thing to be able to wake up in the morning, come down, get your coffee, spend some time getting ready for the day, and then just walking over to the home office. There are challenges though, which I’m sure we’ll get into as we talk about this really timely topic, right?
Ken Tan:
Oh yeah. You start thinking about, I think we’ve heard it so many times that the term work-life balance. And I even heard it over my career, you hear the balance and you’re like, “Okay, so if I balance too much on one side, the other side gets neglected.” And it’s one of those things where I think even in the ministry, in a nonprofit setting, it is so important for us just to step back sometimes and think about what our priorities are. And I think that’s one of the things that for us, we really love to highlight even in this podcast, is the importance of knowing that it is important to have that type of balance, whether you’re in a mission setting or even a professional setting versus in a personal side.
And I think about it for us, we’re both partners in a public accounting firm and we start thinking about even what took us to get to this point. And I say for even my career, I had been at another firm where typically, and this is definitely not meant to be at all any type of way to discredit what has happened there, I was very used to just working very long hours. I used to be, prior to being married and prior to meeting my wife, I would be used to essentially working 60, 70 hours a week and then come busy season, especially when it comes to January, we had accelerated filers, and so with that, your audits were just really a full on sprint right after Christmas. And typically, in that case you were working at least Monday through Saturday and sometimes Sunday afternoons. And during that period it was something where you were just used to it.
Then as you started thinking about it, and it was one of the things that was actually interesting for me is as I look back and recollect, I remember some of those times where for us as a team at the time, we did talk about the topic of work-life balance. And at that point you were like, well, I think in this work-life balance, I think work is outbalancing my life, but at that time you weren’t thinking about it, right? I think once you start having additional factors like family, when you start factoring some of the things you’re really passionate about, like for me, I do enjoy serving in different capacities outside of work, you start to step back and say, “Okay, what do I truly prioritize?” And that’s one of the things that I think as we continue talking on this piece, it’s one of the things where you can tell that that really played a role even in some of the decisions I made from my own career as well. So I don’t know, how about you, Chris, if you had something similar or some thoughts about that too?
Chris Purnell:
So my journey was a little different, but I certainly saw kind of through a window with a lot of my friends from law school just how they had to really wrestle with work-life balance. So what I did when I graduated from law school is I went and worked at a faith-based legal aid organization. And what I loved about that was that yes, we worked hard and yes, we cared deeply about the mission and yes, there was always significantly more work than one could do over the course of 40 to 50 hours a week. However, since it was faith-based and since they cared about families, they understood, number one, that there is only one Messiah and you are not Him, so therefore you can’t do all the work. You were built as a finite human creature to be in one place at one time. And that is a feature, not a bug. But also, number two, that if you’re going to be a father, a mother, a friend, a person who is volunteering in your church in some significant capacity, you have to be able to leave the office before 7:00, 8:00 at night.
But I did see several of my friends who went the, quote, unquote, “big ball route,” and I’ll tell you, there’s just a real life aspect to this. There is a, “Hey, I’ve been through two to three marriages and I have a hard time building relationships.” So it is really, really tough. One of my good friends, he went to a really large law firm and during the Christmas season he and his family had developed a tradition where they would drive around, look at Christmas lights and that kind of stuff. And he had to miss that one year because he was working. The dude was living like a ’90s Christmas movie special where it’s like Dad works too much, but he’s got to find a way to get home for Christmas.
So it is really hard and it forces you into the space of, like you mentioned, prioritization. How do you prioritize things that are really important in your life? And I think that there’s been a lot of good discussion and a lot of good books and articles and experiences that people have had with work-life balance. So I think what we are going to explore is how did we get from where we’re two single dudes who are jumping into our initial foray into the professional career to now me, I’ve got two decades of marriage behind me, which is nuts, because I look in the mirror and I still see a 21-year-old man, but no one else does, got all these wrinkles, and two kids later. It’s just how do you get sort of transition in each season of life to where you are achieving some element of work-life balance, right? You’re never going to achieve full balance, but how do you achieve some element of something that’s going to be sustainable?
Ken Tan:
Well, you always think about even the concept here that hindsight is 20:20 and you start thinking about even just where you looked back at. And for me, you just started talking about that, I was probably in that similar grind for a good period of time where I was very career-focused. I wanted to move up. Since I wasn’t at all held back at the time since I was single, I was willing to travel. And I actually did travel a lot more at that old firm. It was to the point that I actually was able to have regular scheduled abilities to play kickball with my friends in another town because I was going to be there on a weekly basis.
Chris Purnell:
Wow.
Ken Tan:
And that’s where part of it is that was a phase of life where, for me, I was able to have some of the things in terms of prioritizing. And I think at the concept you started thinking about the term of time management. There’s two finite resources that we actually have, it’s money and time. And in both cases they both have their own type of finite abilities to utilize. For a lot of times we always, not always, but we tend to focus on that first one, the money piece without realizing the time aspect. It’s one of those things where once I met my wife and we were realizing that hey, we were both career-driven professionals, but then realized there was more to it for us. Actually when I got her father’s blessing, he asked for us to make sure that we plugged in as well into our church more than what we do, which we were still active going. We used to go every Sunday mornings. We were very diligent about that. And then after that I’d have in the back of my mind thinking about getting back into the office to get things done.
Chris Purnell:
Yeah, that’s right. That’s right.
Ken Tan:
It was one of those things where now, thankfully, I don’t have to worry about that. But that’s where part of it is knowing that there are times where it is going to be busy. I think for a lot of us, especially as professionals, especially in an industry where there are deadlines and things like that, there is time that we do need to have to sit down, really get deep in there, dig in and get ready to knock things out. But then there’s also a time for us to rest. And I think a lot of us, we tend to forget about the concept of rest.
I think even in our own society, I don’t know, Chris, if ever you notice there’s a trend, and I wasn’t sure if I was going to bring this up yet or not, but it almost seems like when you say, “Hey, good morning, how are you?” And you typically hear one of the first responses that the person you’re talking to talk about is how busy they are is like, “Oh, it’s been a busy, busy time.” And there’s not really many times you hear someone say, “Well, nothing’s really happened. I’m just really relaxing and resting.” Because I guess there might be a perception if you’re not saying that you’re busy and that you’re so busy with your schedules and time, that’s frowned upon. And that’s where one of the things that I’ve just been like, wow, we have, I thin, overall had this perception even here for us, is if we don’t say we’re busy, then we ourselves are really not contributing the way we should be. And I think that’s where sometimes we feel that pressure. I don’t know if you’ve seen that or thought about that too, Chris.
Chris Purnell:
Oh gosh. Well there’s so much there and I think there’s so much we could camp out on in those comments. The first one is I think that I want to hear more about your story from how did you and your wife go from being too hard charging professionals to where you are now where you’ve got four bambinos who are full of excess energy and making a go of that and being heavily involved in your church. And I think you’re doing a church plant, right? It just, it’s a lot.
Ken Tan:
Yeah, we started a new campus, yeah.
Chris Purnell:
So definitely not-
Ken Tan:
I can share about that.
Chris Purnell:
Yeah, that’d be great. That’d be great.
Ken Tan:
I think, especially so for us, Brittany and I, when we got married, we were still professionals in that whole case for a couple of years. For me, having been able to be in that mission organization, I was able to have that type of balance. She was still practicing tax, and so with that, she had her busy seasons, but we made it work because, again, that’s where the background was since we were both coming from a firm that had those types of expectations that it’s going to be busy during seasons. And for me, we were able to make it work. I think realization for when we were trying to say that, “Hey, we have to really step back and see what we need to do long-term about what matters most to us,” was really when we were in Texas, that was when I was trying to debate as to whether or not I was going to go the route of staying at the firm that I was at or consider other options.
And during that time, I’ll just be very, very candid in this situation, it was one of those things where I think just like you seen there, Chris, again, I got to work with some wonderful people. Again, these were people that are very driven. And with it though, when you step back, you saw there were some folks that had some of those situations from a relational side that really was not up to par from what you would consider the definition of success. They’re either having estranged relationships or even having gone on their second marriage or even divorced. And I was like, “I don’t want have that type of approach.”
It’s not meant to be judgmental at all, but just to kind of say, “Hey, one of the things I really wanted to value was I talked about the thing…” And that came from our pastor in Texas that talked about the two roles of not wanting to be replaced, which is husband to my wife and father to my kids. And at the time, we didn’t have kids yet, but when my wife told me she was pregnant, and that’s when a lot of things were starting to just kind run in my mind.
And what was so interesting, Chris, was that during that period, I didn’t really think about it at the time, but during that period there were a number of folks that I knew that were in public accounting with me that died of stress related causes, and it was from the fact of just strokes, heart attacks, things like that while they were working. And this is where part of it is, again, I know for a lot of us that’s the harsh reality that sometimes you never know when your time is going to happen, right? But one of the things that really rang deep to me was when I realized that, and you start looking at that, of course there was a period of grieving, but for those companies, even for ours and everything like that, the company would still have to move on and those folks were replaced. Again, that’s where part of it is you start to realize just the fact of it that to ourselves, time is not really granted to us. We don’t know all that’s available, so how do we make the most of it?
And that’s one of the things I saw. I think this came from Charles de Gaulle from a historical perspective where he said, “The cemeteries are full of irreplaceable men,” and you start hearing that, the irreplaceable men, you’re like, boy, that takes that into perspective, right? Especially for driven folks like us. And that’s where I think for Brittany and I, we prayed a lot about what should we do in terms of being able to find the right balance of, one, being able to provide for the family, but, two, find a way that we were able to find that fulfillment of being able to serve in a way that we can find the right balance.
And I’m very grateful that CapinCrouse was the one that gave the opportunity for us, because again, being able to work remotely even ever since, I think our firm had been remote for a number of years, even before I even joined, and it’s been so great because, again, I think I was doing the daily commute. I know many of our listeners are probably doing the same thing, they’re listening to this on their commute as well, which is completely understandable.
Chris Purnell:
On the commute, that’s right.
Ken Tan:
But then you start to realize that, hey, there’s the ability now that we actually get some of our time back when we do get to work remote and have the ability to still be productive in a way that allows us to be in an environment that lets us still be present. I think that’s the words there too.
Chris Purnell:
That’s right. Yeah, being present wherever you are is such a key thing. And the things that I really appreciate about your story, Ken, is that you both have kind of what I’ll call mini crisis moments where you’re seeing people that are in the same profession that you are, have probably a similar demeanor, hard charging, moving forward, like a shark constantly looking for the next thing. Just kidding. But just like those people who are Type A and moving and then the stop that they have, the rest that they experience is a rest that you don’t recover from, whether it’s burnout or in some cases, like you mentioned, just death, which is tragic.
Ken Tan:
That’s true.
Chris Purnell:
Absolutely tragic. But also, having really constructive conversations with Brittany, thinking about your future, hearing from your pastor, wise words from a wise mentor. And I feel like those are the kinds of things that you see with people who ultimately think about vocation and what their life is meant to be made up of in a really wise way. So the Bible says, “Teach us to number our days that we may gain a heart of wisdom,” and it’s because death is coming. Not to be morbid or anything, but it’s going to happen to all of us. Death and taxes, am I right?
Ken Tan:
Yeah, exactly.
Chris Purnell:
And with taxes, at least when it’s coming due-
Ken Tan:
When it’s coming due, right.
Chris Purnell:
Yeah. But with death, you have no idea. And again, that’s a feature, not a bug because it forces us to think through how do I live wisely? How do I live within my limits? Because you and I both know this, there are some people who can just, it seems like, can do nearly everything and can say yes to nearly everything. I mean, I’m sharing the space with you, I look at you and I’m like, “Man, Ken can do so much.” And then there’s some people, some men and women for whom it seems like a little more circumscribed, and that’s no slam on anybody. It just means that what’s going to be your capacity is going to differ from human to human.
So it really requires you to do some self-reflection and say, “Okay, how have I been made? How have I been wired? Can I say yes to nearly limitless possibilities and say a really strong yes to those things, my church, my friends, my hobbies? And by the way, my work and my spouse and my kids, can I say a strong yes to those things, all of them? Or does it more depend on what stage of life am I in? Does it more depend on maybe there’s been an illness in the family?”
I’m looking at a lot of people who are a little bit later on in their career, 50s, 60s, and what I’m seeing is that they have that sandwich effect going on. Some of their kids are a little bit older and maybe coming back to the roost to live with mom and dad, and their own parents are getting older and they’re trying to figure out what’s next for their parents. So work-life balance is going to look a whole lot different from them. So that wisdom element is really key.
Ken Tan:
Exactly. There’s actually to an extent that I sometimes think that we probably need to consider even redefining balance. There’s some alternative terms I’ve heard before. Before it used be work-life integration. I think some of the other ones we should think about, especially from us from a biblical perspective, is work-life harmony or even whole life stewardship, managing the time as a resource with your calling. And, again, this is not meant to be at all a shameless plug about what we get to do here at CapinCrouse. It’s been so great that a number of the nonprofits and organizations that we work with are very family focused too as well, that typically they have the same considerations of what priorities are.
I’ll give a couple examples. When I went and I joined the CapinCrouse the first time, I had to go do some consulting assessments at a church. And I remember for me, I still had kind of that public accounting mindset that I’ll work until 6:00, and just showed that I’m going to continue to be very effective with bringing the value. And I remember around 5:15, 5:30, the finance admin came by the conference room. I was still just typing away getting things done on this report and the documentation that we were doing. And she was like, “Ken, how are you doing?” I’m like, “Oh, I’m doing great. I’m busy.” You keep saying that, “I’m busy.” But she was like, “Oh, that’s good. Do you know by chance how long you’re planning on staying here?” And again, this is where you tell the sweet Southern approach on things. And I was like, “Oh, I guess maybe another hour or so. I just want to really knock this out.” And she’s like, “Oh, well, I guess that’s good. Typically, our church offices closed at 4:00.” And I’m looking and it’s 5:30. So I was like, is this poor lady waited for an hour and a half to finally ask me to leave.
But that’s where part of it’s you start realizing, hey, there used to be probably some type of pressure of showing that, hey, you want to be the first there last to leave. And that’s where even just for me, I even think about just one of the things I heard from my own, I had a mentor in Texas, and he actually approached it to me as have you ever seen the outlet, those outlets you see in the bathroom? Not the regular, but the ones that have those little breakers? Well, there’s an acronym that says GFCI, right? Those GFCI outlets. He said, “Ken, this is how I live every day.” And he said, “G stands for God. That’s my first priority first and foremost. I need to make sure I’m right with Him before I continue onto my next priority. The next one, which is the F, is family. That is the next important thing for us to consider is we need to take care of our family first and foremost. And then the next one is C, which is career-”
Chris Purnell:
Cash.
Ken Tan:
Exactly. Career equals cash.
Chris Purnell:
Just straight up cash.
Ken Tan:
Exactly. That’s what we need. That’s why we’re working, right? But C is for career, right? Career. And that’s where Parva is saying that, look, it’s still in that top three, top five, but that’s where you’re starting to see where the priorities. And then I stands for anything inconsequential. So stuff that at the end of the day doesn’t matter. And that’s where you start realizing that relationships are such a big deal. And you start thinking about the first two is the relationship with God, relationship with your family and your friends, and then of course your career, right? Again, I mean I would say we’ve been blessed with a great career that we had so far at at CapinCrouse, but we’ve been able to have the thing where we’re not having to step right there and look at the fork in the road of saying which one makes the more sense for us.
I can just say from real life examples some additional ones is just, for example, the first thing was I do travel because I do speak at a lot of conferences, as the firm’s church and denomination leader, I’m doing a lot of things that have a focus on denominational aspects or things on strategy and building relationships. So by default, that’s a very relational focused role. And typically in the summers the travel goes up because of the amount of conferences and events and opportunities, whether it’s with different denominations or even with different churches. One of the things that the firm has been very supportive of has been the fact that they realize that family is important. And my mentor here at the firm always says, “Ken, I never want to make you have to choose between family or work because family will always win and I’ll support you when that comes up.”
And one of the things, I always get approval, just want to give you the preface of this, and of course I cover the kids and the families on this. But instead of me flying, I will normally get a rental vehicle and instead of us flying, we will actually just drive and do a family road trip to the areas I have to go meet. Instead of staying in a hotel, we’ll just stay in an Airbnb. The costs are pretty much the same amount. But what’s nice is that while I’m in my meetings, my family gets to go explore the city. They get to go explore.
So this past summer, it was pretty cool because based on the number of conferences I was going to go to, it all kind of worked out that we were able to do pretty much a 42 to 45 day road trip. And during that road trip, I had my meetings in all the various cities. I got work needed to get done. My kids got to go to the museums and all, and we came home to a home-cooked meal, even in our Airbnb. And it was nice because it was almost like they approached it as Dad is going to work at this place, but he’s coming back still. And that’s what has been so awesome. I may not have the same type of airline status because I wasn’t flying that period, but I would not trade it for the world for the time and the memories that I was able to make with the boys, while still being able to serve our clients. So that’s one of the things I was just so appreciative of this past summer too as well.
Chris Purnell:
And that’s so special. I mean, being able to work in a place like Capin where they understand the value of family, understand the value of being a present father, a present spouse, and being able to lug all those kids around, which I don’t know how they dealt with the 15, 20 hour car rides. I can only imagine.
Ken Tan:
I got to tell you, and this is a brief side note on the personal side, so of course we got to go… Since the finishing part was we had to go to Omaha, Nebraska, the rest of it, I took personal time at the last week or so just to go to Yellowstone, Grand Tetons, and then also to Mount Rushmore. And I remember some of these things where it’s like when you’re on a road trip for that long, you have to find a way to get along to, but at the same time, there are some high highs and some low lows. And we get back home and the grandparents, we had dinner with them, they’re like, “Oh, hey boys, what was the highlight?” And they’re referencing a day that Brady and I, when we’re sitting around the dinner table, we’re looking at each other, “I don’t remember it happening the same way because I remember looking in my rear view mirror and our 6-year-old hops out of his seat to get into a scrabble with his eight-year-old brother in the middle of the highway.” We had to get off the road and immediately-
Chris Purnell:
Just slugging him.
Ken Tan:
But they don’t remember that. They remember those memories, right? And I think that’s where it’s like you start thinking about how important that being present is so important. I think for myself, again, just so grateful to be here that I also get to go and have that balance of my weekends are meant for my family, even the after works as well. Because as you know, with the four boys, by default people ask, “What is your hobby?” And my hobby is, “Whatever the boys are doing,” right?
Chris Purnell:
My boys.
Ken Tan:
Yeah, my boys. So spring and part of fall, spring I was a baseball coach for three of the boys. So on Saturdays I was running from one team to another. And then on fall and summer, we were traveling a little bit as a family for some of these games and tournaments and all. It was fun, it was exhausting. But the whole thing there was that I’d rather be exhausted because I was spending all that time with my family than being fully rested because I had nothing to do with the family. That’s one of the things that I’ve been trying to really emphasize as a part of my day-to-day living.
Chris Purnell:
Well, there’s a, quote, unquote, “balance” there, right? Sometimes I hear it as a tension to be managed. There’s always going to be a tension there where you want to be present, which can sometimes be tiring, but you also need to take some time to recharge. Now, some people are blessed with the, “Hey, I get recharged by, guess what, being around my family,” and it’s totally energizing and that kind of stuff. Some of us, we have different demeanors where we need to spend some time alone, spend some time walking, just being out in nature by ourself, whatever the case may be. So being able to understand who you are, how you’ve been made, how do you get recharged so that way you can be fully present when you’re around people.
And Ken, as you’re talking, I’m thinking through my own life. I had my wonderful experience at the legal aid organization, tough, tough work certainly, leadership has its own particular challenges, but very blessed to look back on that and say, “I was really present with my daughter when she was born. I was really present with Christopher, my son,” and then I’m looking at Capin, and as you’ve mentioned, Capin is also kind of a little slice of paradise when it comes to maintaining work-life balance, caring about your family. You’ve got a mentor. Same here, I’ve got a very strong mentor who cares about my family and whether I’m being present as a dad and as a husband.
But I think about maybe those listeners who maybe they’re not as fortunate as we are and they’re maybe in the grind, maybe they’ve chosen a career path that doesn’t have that, or maybe they’re in a particular season of life at their organization where it’s just go, go, go all the time. I think about ministries that are going through succession, ministries that are going through transitions, ministries that are maybe they’ve got some of the professionals of CRI and/or CapinCrouse in their offices doing an audit. So that can be kind of a high wire act. But I start thinking through what would I tell those folks? And here’s kind of where I end up. I have two thoughts. The first one is, yes, time management matters. But the older I get, the more I realize that energy management might matter even more. What are you energized by and what is the constant output? So for instance, there are some tasks that I can do and it feels rejuvenating and I’m like, “Man, how can Capin even pay me to do this?” I’m just kidding. I really do like my paycheck.
Ken Tan:
We do.
Chris Purnell:
But it’s like things like… That’s C, the cash. But our time together, Ken, this is great. Love it. Spending time with other coworkers, spending time with clients, all that good stuff, that’s not significantly hard work. But there are some elements where it’s like, okay, this is 4-5x output. And so just realizing managing those energy levels becomes really, really important.
Ken Tan:
Yeah, I think you bring up a good point. For us, again, we get to work remotely. It’s something we don’t take for granted, I don’t take for granted, and we’ve been able to do it for at least now the last six, going on seven years, that one of the things I try to figure out is to even be able to do something like that, it does require a level of discipline, whether it’s with time management, whether it’s with energy management. There are times for me, especially when I’m working, there are times that actually, so my morning can sometimes look like a pretty crazy schedule.
So you can start to see some of these little plugs I’m going to have, so I get up at 5:00 in the morning, so this is like walk in the day of Ken. I get up at 5:00 in the morning, I go work out with this free men’s workout group called L3. So I do that from 5:30 to 6:15. I get back home, I do my devotional. I then go get things ready for breakfast, trying to help get things set up, do a couple of emails by 7:00 AM. Around that time, my boys are starting to get up. I go spend some quality time with them. We do our kids devotional with them during the morning while they’re eating breakfast. Typically by 8:30, 9:00, I’m back in my office getting some work done. I’ll work until probably like 10:30, 11:00. If I don’t have a lunch meeting with a prospect or a client contact, I will be at home, we’ll have lunch together because my boys are now homeschooled.
After that, all depending, there are times between 1:00 to 4:00 that I’m continuing to work. There are times that, again, when the boys, since they are homeschooled, there are times they’ll knock on the door and they’ll say, “Daddy, can you throw a ball with me?” And I want to be the one where there are times I will have to say no, right? I do have calls, I do have meetings. But hopefully, if there isn’t something going on, I will go outside, throw a ball with them for 15, 20 minutes, fill up their tank of saying, “Hey, Dad was there. He said yes.” And then I’ll go back to work until about dinner time. Dinner time is around 5:30 for us. We eat earlier, Chris, so it’s sometimes like 5:00. It’s crazy, some folks have-
Chris Purnell:
We got ravenous wolves.
Ken Tan:
It’s funny, even with our small group, we noticed that once you have little kids, dinner time starts earlier. Sometimes it’s 4:35. If it’s 6:00 or 7:00, we got grumpy kids. And I see some of our friends who are married, but without kids, they’re eating at 8:00. I don’t know how you guys are surviving.
Chris Purnell:
Yeah, you got your ARP card. You guys are at the same time as the retirees.
Ken Tan:
I want that early bird special. And then from there, we eat dinner, we spend time as a family. I help get them ready for bed. And then actually after that, all depending what Bernie has going on for her catch up and for me, I’ll go back and I’ll send a couple more emails because I have clients and teams on the West Coast that are just wrapping up. And with that, there are times that people at the firm are like, “Ken, are you always working?” I’m like, “I get my billable hours in. I promise you that.” But I try to balance it out because again, there’s things that it would work, life will also happen.
Even last year I was in Texas for some client meetings, and on Tuesday that morning, my wife said, “Hey…” We thought that our son, our six-year-old was just going to have a routine thing at urgent care with some sinuses. And all it turns out they sent him to the children’s healthcare for the ER because of what was happening with respiratory. And what I did at that time was not only was the client supportive saying, “Hey, Ken, family matters most,” I called my mentor because I was like, “Hey, I know I was supposed to be here at the next two or three days, but here’s what’s happening.” Never in any of the situations during my time here at the firm has there ever been a, “No, you need to stay there for work.” It was, “Go be with your family.”
And that’s one of the things I think for those that don’t have the opportunity right now, again, it’s not saying you need to leave immediately or anything like that, but it’s just something of saying it’s always good to step back and evaluate what opportunities there are out there. Because at the end of the day, that culture matters. The culture of where you’re working with does also play a role. B.
Because I used to think about it, I remember when I was a bright eyed college student going through trying to figure out what it was like, and then I see all these very successful looking partners. And then I actually had a great partner at the old firm I was at, he was also a mentor of mine, and he’s the one that told me, he said, “Know your worth. But then two, never sacrifice family for work.” He said, “Even myself,” that’s what he said, he said, “Even though I have a great thing here going on, I will easily part ways with this career here if my family ends up having to be a choice that I have to make.”
And he actually lived and walked the walk. And he’s not there anymore, but he has got a very successful career elsewhere. And I see him, and he’s a lovely growing family too. And that’s where part of it is essentially saying it’s great to also get feedback from others just saying, “Hey, how am I doing?” Because there’s a lot of times you could just only self-evaluate how you think you’re doing with things. I’ll tell you, one of the things that was interesting for me, Chris, is getting candid feedback from your kids right on that because yeah, that’s where part of it is they may not be able to say it as diplomatically as you would, right?
I mean, I’ll tell you the funny part, right? There’s one where, so as you know, Georgia Tech football, we are in a rebuild, but just like Atlanta, Atlanta sports is always in a rebuild, but tech is doing a lot better now. We were at a slump a couple of years ago, and my son, as we were driving back after Georgia Tech gets completely destroyed, it was one of these things, we got some great tickets on Groupon. So if your football tickets show up on Groupon, then you know you’ve probably [inaudible 00:37:32].
Chris Purnell:
Not a great in year.
Ken Tan:
But I remember we’re driving and my son as we’re driving, he goes, “Dad, would you be mad if I went and I played baseball or football for the University of Georgia?” And Brittany’s looking there at me, try not to laugh. And I’m like, “Son, I will love you no matter what because people are not perfect, but why would you like to do that?” And he just immediately goes, “Because they win.” And you just kind of pull and you feel the thing twists. But that’s where you see this honest feedback. So you know that the kids are not going to shy with words. So there are times when I asked my boys, because I was like, “Hey, what is something that Daddy could do better?” And thankfully, they haven’t said anything about the quality time piece and all. They do wish they could travel with me whenever I do travel, right?
Chris Purnell:
Sure, yeah.
Ken Tan:
I did ask them before, I was like, “Does Daddy travel a lot?” Because, again, I do travel a good bit, but my hope is that it’s not so frequent that I’m missing things. And they’re like, “You know, sometimes you do.” I’m like, “Oh, well, tell me more about it.” He said, “Well, during the day during work, you actually have to go and have a lunch meeting, so you’re traveling.” And I’m like, “Okay, that’s their perspective of travel.”
Chris Purnell:
That’s right. That’s right.
Ken Tan:
But I said, “Does Daddy travel away from town where you don’t see me multiple nights?” He says, “No, not that like that.” But it’s good to kind get that type of inventory of what that looks like. Because I do travel, as you can see my background, but my goal is that I’m not missing those important events. I’m there for those periods. I’m still coaching right now for basketball. And that’s where, again, I’m so glad I don’t have that type of guilt either.
Chris Purnell:
Yeah, yeah. Well, there’s a lot there, right? And I’m a big principalizing guy, so I take that and I think through what are the nuggets that we can take from Ken’s story time? And here are a few that I think are really helpful for our listeners. And number one is discipline. That there is an inescapable amount of discipline that’s required if you’re going to achieve some element of balance, tension, integration, whatever you want to call it. It’s not totally semantics, but it’s have partly semantics at that point. But discipline is the name of the game. You’re going to have to learn how to say a really hearty yes to some things, which will entail a really strong no to some things. So my suspicion is that Ken does not get nine hours of sleep every night. My suspicion is that Ken gets a little bit less than that. So how do you manage that is going to be really key.
But number two, there’s one podcaster that I listen to who says this phrase, and you’ll get it once I explain it a little bit. But it says, “Choose a sense of guilt over resentment.” And what that means is that you don’t want to resent your job from taking you away from your family, which I sometimes hear that from professionals where they’re just like the job satisfaction starts to decline because they’re realizing, “Gosh, I’m just being taken away from my family all the time.” Well, so you might need to choose a little bit of guilt, meaning you say no to some things, you say no to some things at your job. Maybe you say no to that promotion, maybe you say no to that particular trip, maybe you say no to this particular assignment. That might be something that in this moment you feel like is going to make or break your career. And so making those types of choices is going to be really key as well.
Then the third thing that you mentioned, getting some outside perspective I think is really helpful too. I had a mentor who sat me down during a breakfast meeting and he goes, “Chris, you’re a generally likable guy. People are going to say generally nice things about you-”
Ken Tan:
Most days. Most days.
Chris Purnell:
Most days. I was like, “You don’t know the darkness, my friend.” But he’s like, “Yeah, yeah, people generally are going to say appreciable things about you. But the true test of a leader is what do those who are closest to you think about you? Those who see you when you’re not at your best, when you’re not as well-rested as you could be, when maybe you’re a little irritated when maybe someone’s gotten under your skin just a touch. How do you react in those situations? What would your spouse say about Chris Purnell? What would your kids say about Chris Purnell?” And I was living at that moment, and my kids were really little, probably three and maybe not even one at that point, so my kids weren’t going to say much. But Christie would certainly say quite a bit.
Ken Tan:
Sure.
Chris Purnell:
And I was in kind of my first year of leadership of this organization and was getting my sea legs, and it was a lot of time. It was a lot of time, and it was a lot of relational energy outside of the home. So I was already kind of feeling that sense of resentment starting to start with my job. And when this mentor said that, it really helped me get some perspective and realize, “Gosh, I really do need to more intentionally check in with Christie to make sure that, Hey, I know I’m not going to hit all the marks. I’m not perfect, but am I hitting the most important marks at this stage of our lives together, building this family and trying to do something that’s going to transcend whatever assignment or whatever donor meeting or whatever board meeting I need to be a part of?'”
CS Lewis talks about how kings and kingdoms and empires and governments, they’re all going to fade away. And in fact, unless you’re a classically educated person, you won’t even know who they are. But humans, individual humans are eternal, they’re going to last for forever. And that includes our family, that includes our friends, that includes the people that we’re walking with in our churches and other volunteer endeavors. So that’s just getting that perspective.
Ken Tan:
I think that is a great reminder. My mentor has told me it before, the only people that know that you worked a lot are your kids and your grandkids, and that’s what they’ll remember. And it’s one of those things, you might know it more as yourself, but do you even know your great grandparents’ names and their history anymore? Most of it is within that grandkids, the kids’ section about who you are and your legacy. We might have an episode about legacy too as well.
Chris Purnell:
Yeah, yeah.
Ken Tan:
That’s where we started thinking about and step back, we’re in the 21st century, and so many other centuries have passed already in terms of what has happened. Sure, there’s history books, but I would say what matters most for me is what do my kids and my future grandkids think of how I had built the foundations or invested in them time wise? And that intentionality is so important. Again, a lot of times… Again, I’ll be very honest, there’s probably a lot of folks here that work very busy jobs, because this is the accounting profession-
Chris Purnell:
For sure.
Ken Tan:
It’s accounting. Even in a missional work, your mission may not feel like a work, but even for pastors, they’re working on the weekends because people are calling them.
Chris Purnell:
Absolutely.
Ken Tan:
There’s so many times that it’s so easy that burnout happens. And for us, I’m trying to think through of saying, anytime I say yes, that means I’m saying no to something else. So what am I saying yes to compared to what I have to say no? And that’s where-
Chris Purnell:
And that’s so intimidating, right? Because the yes is very finite. It’s very particular, it’s very specific. But the no is almost universal, right? It’s infinity minus one is what you’re saying no to, which is scary, intimidating. But it’s the way that reality has been designed. And I think if we have a little bit of time, we should talk through maybe some of the particular elements of work-life balance and burnout that pastoral employees face, because I know it’s something that’s near and dear to your heart. And as an elder at my church, as an elder at other churches, that’s something that I care deep about too. But yeah.
Ken Tan:
Oh yeah, I would say there was a survey that came out, a vast majority of pastors were going through potential burnout over the last years, couple years. And I think a lot of it’s because you start thinking about it’s not just even the time, but the emotional type of things from the energy side, how much ultimately, at the end of the day, they have to stay strong for their congregation. And the congregation sees them as a leader that they’re going to pour out some of their burdens, and now he’s not able to share his own with others, right?
Chris Purnell:
That’s right.
Ken Tan:
That’s where you start seeing, and it’s been unfortunate, you can probably just go on the news, just how much burnout and moral failure and things like that came as a result of just the amount of what pressure is going on in the pastor that they find other outlets. And it’s not until it finally gets revealed how much has happened in that case. And that’s where even to my dad, when he was a pastor, I knew growing up, I saw all the things… I saw just at least just from far away as to just some of the things he had to interact with.
And there’s a lot of times that many times you do see… I look up to my dad so much of some of the things he’s had to go through, but he had such a heart for pastors about knowing that, again, with this type of burnout, it is so easy to happen because you come in there just like I was like a bright-eyed college student entering into this industry, for pastors when they’re starting a new church or I think there’s that excitement about, “What is this going to bring? How many people are we going to reach and touch?”
And now you fast forward a couple years later, finances are tight, people are complaining about how the service is going. You speak too much, you speak too little. “Oh, I have these burdens going on, Pastor. I have all these things.” And then ultimately, there’s no way to share about it with anyone else, that your spouse is already seeing you’re exhausted and so they’re commenting about some of the things too. So that’s adding more, and you can just easily see that ultimately spiral down into a situation. And I think this is where part of it is you need to find that community support.
I will tell you, one of the things that has been so, as at least what I’ve seen over the last couple of years, has been there’s a bigger trend for more of these round tables for pastors where it’s more intimate. So typically it’s strategically focused, whether it’s based on denomination or even just by church size. So you will see in these round tables, it’s similar sized churches. It’s either executive pastors or youth pastors or senior pastors, where there’s 15 of them, maybe 20 of them. It’s in a setting where there’s no cameras or anything like that, but they’re just able to open up about what’s on their mind. And I was able to attend some of those, there’s other folks because they have some things on their thoughts that they’d love to just ask.
But I think what’s often in that case, it’s allowed them just to know they’re not alone. I’ve been so blessed that back in Atlanta, I have a group of guys that I can do life with that I can just share what’s my struggles, just saying, “Hey, you know what, sometimes I feel like I just dropped the ball as a dad,” and they can either correct me or encourage me and things like that. That’s what we think is so important even for pastors is having that, because if they show some signs of weakness to their congregation, you don’t know what they’re feeling, right? And being able to have that from their peers and saying that, “I’ve been there, I’ve seen that frustration and know you’re not alone,” I think that really helps in that instance too.
Chris Purnell:
I agree. I agree. Pastors being able to have both their own friends who may be pastors, and so therefore they, quote, unquote, “get it.” They get what’s going on. They get the varying political things that are happening, whether it’s actually political where you’re trying not to say something that’s “wrong,” quote, unquote, in the eyes of the congregation, or if you don’t speak out, “Why didn’t you say anything?” So all that kind of stuff. But also, man, you’re just bearing so many burdens of the congregation. Do you have an outlet to share that with someone else? Yes, the pastor’s spouse can be a little bit that person, but also you need to shield them too in some form or fashion because they’re part of the body, they’re a part of the church, and you don’t want to burden them with all kinds of things about what Dear Suzy Smith said about your sermon or what Chuck said about your small group Bible study or whatever it is. So needing to have that outlet is going to be really key.
I think too, rhythms of rest and renewal. Pastors, they can sometimes get into a space where they spend so much time preaching about Sabbath rest, about renewal, about rich times and God’s word, about having some sanctified moments with God’s people, that they don’t take advantage of those things themselves. Now, that’s already in a hard spot if you’re doing that, where your words outpace your actions. But pastors just feel like they’re more susceptible to that because they’re literally paid to talk at you every single week, and people expect you to come prepared for that. So being able to say, “Hey, Congregation, I need to break away. I need my own Sabbath time,” I know several pastors who don’t take a day off, and that’s not good. That’s not good.
Ken Tan:
I’ve seen that too. Well, I think what at least is encouraging is we’re seeing a bigger trend now of more churches supporting sabbaticals. It may be just a month, maybe a couple weeks, but the ability for a pastor to unplug or a staff person there, pastoral generally, to just do something that doesn’t require them to have the pressure of speaking and all. And they can visit other churches during that period just to get some encouragement. I think that’s so important because, again, that’s where part of it, we take it from our perspective that on the seventh day God rested, right? And that’s one of the things He’s trying to model, we need to rest too. And that’s where part of it is trying to find that balance of saying, “Where can I say no so I can put some boundaries and guardrails not just over my heart, but my families and those around me that matter most And what does that require?”
Sometimes it does require you to get out of your comfort zone, right? I think for you, Chris and I, and I know we’ll have an episode on this too as well, but in terms of our DiSC profiles, you know, you and I are both I’s, so to an extent it’s going to be difficult for us to say no to something because I feel like I just let down that person. But I think it’s also important for us to get out of the comfort zone saying, “Look, I really wish I could, but I can’t. I can’t right now.” And that’s where part of is having to go through that practice of saying it’s so hard for us to know anything, but practice does help. And being able to know that, I think people will respect that more, that you’re not trying to push too much in terms of trying to say yes to everything, and then ultimately you disappoint them. You’re actually setting the right guardrails because you know yourself more.
Chris Purnell:
Being willing to disappoint people. There was one leadership book that I read that said that one of the hallmarks of leadership is to be able to disappoint people at a rate they can stand, to disappoint people at a rate they can stand. You don’t want to constantly be disappointing people because you’re just incompetent, but being able to disappoint people in ways that, “Hey, I would like to do that, but I can’t, I don’t have the time,” or, “I have other priorities at this moment in my life.” And being able to say that I think is really key. And understanding what your priorities are and making sure that you’re clearly communicating that is also really, really important. But also really, really hard because it’s a two-step process.
You have to know what you prioritize. You have to know what you actually care about. Which how many of us when we start off on our professional careers, don’t really know what we actually care about? It’s like, “I’ve been told I should care about this. I’ve been told I should really be passionate about this, but am I really?” And then once you have that down, then moving over to the, “Okay, now I got to start disappointing people because I’ve got these things that I really care about I’m saying a hearty yes to.”
Ken Tan:
This is all good stuff. And my hope is that for the listeners on there, this provides some encouragement. Again, these are just some of the things that for us just being real. Again, we are far from perfect. I’m so far from it. There’s probably a lot that I’m still trying to improve. But my hope is that just the intentions and the folks that can see our hearts are passionate about being for folks. I would love to hear from some of our listeners who could share some of their own strategies or stories as we go through that. We could touch on those as well as we get through it even more. But again, this is just meant to be a time of just saying, look, we know life can get busy. I feel like sometimes our society talks about it. But just like that, it’s also important for us to step back, to evaluate, and also to find time of rest too.
Chris Purnell:
That’s all right. That way you can have some Margin for Mission.
Ken Tan:
Margin for Mission, right. Well, I enjoyed this time, Chris, my friend, and can’t wait for our next episode too as well. So appreciate everything you’ve been doing as well, and I love serving alongside you.
Chris Purnell:
Same here, Ken. Always a pleasure, brother.
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