Nonprofit Resources
Margin for Mission Podcast S1:E8 – Well-Read, Well-Led: Books Shaping Our Leadership this Year – Transcript
Ken Tan:
Welcome to Margin for Mission, the CRI CapinCrouse Podcast, where two friends, Ken and Chris, bring you real talk about creating space for what matters most. Because when your organization has financial and operational margin, you can focus on your mission with confidence.
Chris Purnell:
We’re professionals who’ve spent years helping churches, higher education institutions, and other mission-focused nonprofit organizations manage their accounting, tax, compliance, and other challenges. We understand the complexities you face and we’re here to make it simpler.
Ken Tan:
In each episode, we’ll dive into practical insights on leadership, operations, and the everyday challenges of running a nonprofit without the jargon.
Chris Purnell:
And we’ll talk about life too. Family, faith, quite a bit of football, and finding balance in a world that rarely slows down.
Ken Tan:
So whether you’re managing budgets, leading teams, or just trying to keep your mission moving forward, you’re in the right place.
Chris Purnell:
This is Margin for Mission. Let’s get started.
Ken Tan:
Well, welcome back to Margin For Mission. And this is very exciting because for the first time in our entire episode-
Chris Purnell:
First time.
Ken Tan:
… we are actually in person. Can you believe that, Chris?
Chris Purnell:
I can. I can. In the flesh.
Ken Tan:
Fist bump right here. See?
Chris Purnell:
Can AI do that? Probably.
Ken Tan:
Probably. But this is why we’re so excited now, because finally, with all the things that we end up doing here at Margin For Mission, but specifically for our firm, we finally had a chance to be here together. We’re actually in Dallas, so Dallas, Texas, the great state. And Chris has been hitting the road too as well, speaking to a lot of great conferences as well. And hopefully he’s here at a church conference with me. So Chris, it’s good to have you here, my friend.
Chris Purnell:
Pleasure to be here, man. Always look forward to our times together. As infrequent as they are, this is a real pleasure.
Ken Tan:
That’s the joy of technology. It allows us still to be able to connect even during times of distance.
Chris Purnell:
That’s right.
Ken Tan:
Well, I know this episode is actually a lot more casual because this is where part of it was just, hey, we’re finally able to catch up in person. We want to just be able to just have just a type of conversation where it’s not accounting related. So I know for a lot of y’all, you are going to be pretty disappointed that we’re not going to talk about technical accounting guidance.
Chris Purnell:
Many tears are being shed right now by the viewers and the listeners.
Ken Tan:
I know all those auditors as they’re in our work papers and all this just tearing up for us.
Chris Purnell:
Yeah.
Ken Tan:
Don’t worry. We’ll get those switched because in our next episode after this, we will have an auditor. And I just want to just preface here, auditors do have feelings.
Chris Purnell:
Do they though, like honestly?
Ken Tan:
I’m trying to get good faithful off of that.
Chris Purnell:
Right, fair.
Ken Tan:
Well, I think one of the things asked for Chris and I, especially when it comes to leadership and when it comes to even just for church leaders, a lot of times we have to step back and just say, “Hey, what are some of the things that you’ve seen even this past year, whether it’s reading a book, chapters, whether it’s even just considering something that you’re wanting to read? What are some things that you’ve been able to see from this past year that has made an impact?”
And I think other things that we were talking about was like, man, it might be good for us just to share some of the things that we’ve been reading. And knowing that, most of that is not going to be accounting guidance. We don’t sleep on that, but we do know that it does make an impact on our leadership side.
Chris Purnell:
It absolutely does.
Ken Tan:
That’s where part of us, I think this conversation was meant to be just like, hey, we want to have this casual, non-accounting, pretty much just focused on some of the things that have been really making a big role in our lives. So Chris, what are some of the things that you’ve been thinking about?
Chris Purnell:
It was a long time ago, and I don’t remember where I saw all this, but I read it in a book somewhere. But the statement, leaders are readers. And that’s one that’s continually popped up in my mind as I thought about the leaders that I admire throughout history, and men and women that I admire even in present day and what I’m striving to achieve whenever I’m reading something or trying to take in content, or viewing this as a way to be transformed and to grow, view it as an opportunity to become a better husband, a better father, a better leader more generally.
And so when you kind of sent me this idea of, hey, why don’t we just talk about a couple of either thought pieces or books that we’ve been reading, I was like, yeah, that sounds like an awesome idea. How do we pursue leadership through the things that we’re reading? And that’s one of the things I love talking about. So maybe what I can do is just kind of kick us off with the first book that I’m going to mention.
Ken Tan:
Standard, high.
Chris Purnell:
So this one, the first I’m going to mention is one that I actually read in 2025. And then the second one I’m going to mention is one that I’m smack dab in the middle of, but I know without a shadow of a doubt that when I look back on 2026 and the reading that I did in 2026, it’s going to pop up as a really great book that was transformational.
So the first book, it’s a short book. It’s a really short book, like a hundred pages to 120 pages. And it’s by a theologian who has a really thriving YouTube channel that focuses on apologetics, but also on generally leadership in the church and that kind of stuff. So it’s very apropos for a lot of our church clients, but also just like nonprofit organization clients. And it’s by a guy named Gavin Ortlund.
Ken Tan:
Okay.
Chris Purnell:
He used to be a pastor over in Ojai, California. Now he’s in Nashville, Indiana… Nashville, Indiana… Nashville, Tennessee.
Ken Tan:
Indiana is taking over this year. For football, it’s just pretty much all it is.
Chris Purnell:
That’s right. Nashville, Tennessee. Nashville, Tennessee. And the book is called The Art of Disagreeing: How to Keep Calm and Stay Friends in Hard Conversations. One of the things I love about this book, number one, it is short. It is short. And one of the things that I’m realizing as I get older is that the amount of time and the amount of mental energy that you have to take in some of these concepts and really, really drill them down and apply them to your life and that kind of stuff, you just don’t have as much time.
Ken Tan:
Sure.
Chris Purnell:
And so being able to find a book that’s short, that you can recommend easily, that’s pass-outable, that’s easy to carry around is really key. But it’s not only just a great book from a logistics perspective and from a shortness perspective, but really pithy ideas on how to hold your ground on what you believe to be true, which is important, which is important.
And I think sometimes when we get into disagreements with people, we either have a tendency to fight or fold. And what Gavin Ortlund is talking about in this book is you don’t have to do either one of those. There’s a way to stand firm, but also to make sure that the other side is hearing your particular side and your particular persuasion.
And it’s coming really handy for me personally in just some church context. I’m an elder in my church. Shockingly, church is a place where disagreements abound.
Ken Tan:
Never. Never.
Chris Purnell:
It shouldn’t be that way.
Ken Tan:
We go to all those denominational conferences and everyone’s just having a wonderful time.
Chris Purnell:
Kumbaya.
Ken Tan:
Zero. Keep going.
Chris Purnell:
Kumbaya all the time. And in my relationship with my wife, in my relationship with my kids as I get older, so my kids are 15 and 12, your kids are in a different stage of life. So it’s more command and control.
Ken Tan:
It’ll be there before we know it.
Chris Purnell:
But it’ll be there before you know it, you’re absolutely right. And so now as I’m in this season of like I’m more of a coach and a counselor to my kids, there’s still authority there as a dad but more of a coach and counselor, realizing I’ve got to figure out a way to communicate with them in a way that is with authority but also is persuasive.
Ken Tan:
Absolutely.
Chris Purnell:
So that way they can own some of the rationale on their own. And so the book kind of walks through, number one, what are some of the really important, I don’t know, the things you just have to hold your ground on.
Ken Tan:
Sure.
Chris Purnell:
And how do you define those things? How do you define what the values are that you really care about? How do you define the belief points that you really need to hold firm on in a Christian context? What’s orthodoxy, that’s closed hand, you don’t let those things go? But what are the things that are going to be open hand?
So one of the things that Gavin Ortlund did in another book was he talks about theological triage. How do you prioritize the things that are really important and those things that are matters of debate? You can just let those sort of go to the side and not really… It’s not that you don’t care about those things, but it’s more that you’re not holding them as ultimate things.
Ken Tan:
Well, I would say there’s a lot of times even in a denominational aspect or even in the church, we get distracted by those things that ultimately at the end of the day don’t-
Chris Purnell:
That’s right.
Ken Tan:
… really matter too much.
Chris Purnell:
That’s right.
Ken Tan:
We’re choosing that as that’s our hill to die on.
Chris Purnell:
Absolutely.
Ken Tan:
And I feel like that causes more of a distraction rather than the whole thing of, hey, we’re actually on the same team.
Chris Purnell:
Yep.
Ken Tan:
We’re really trying to build a kingdom here, but let’s not let this noise become bigger than it really is.
Chris Purnell:
Dude, amen. Amen. And it’s so easy to get in that space. It’s so easy to feel like you’re embattled. It’s so easy to feel like you’re being attacked. It’s so easy to feel like you need to stand your ground and fight.
And the next part of the book that Gavin kind of walks through is how do you have the right demeanor, the right approach to conflict? Because conflict’s going to happen. Conflict’s universal. It’s part of being human. We’re going to rub up against each other. There’s going to be friction. And so how do you approach conflict in a way that’s healthy and where you’re really striving for a solution and you’re really striving for understanding?
I feel like in a lot of our discourse, especially our political discourse, and honestly, everything’s political now. So there’s no non-political… How do you move from hyper-partisanship like seen as a wrestling match where you need to win to… I really think that we can persuade each other maybe, and having a good faith dialogue about that. And then you have some practical tips throughout there, like taking a deep breath and taking a step back from the conversation. So that’s kind of the third part of the book, just like what are some tips and tools that you can use.
So all in all, it’s been a book that I have thought about many times throughout the latter half of 2025 and into 2026 as far as how do I navigate life as a father? How do I navigate life as a husband? How do I navigate life as a partner at a firm? How do I communicate in a way that is going to hopefully ultimately be persuasive? But even if it’s not, we can part friends.
Ken Tan:
You still honor the other person-
Chris Purnell:
That’s right.
Ken Tan:
… despite having maybe potentially different agreement in terms of opinions.
Chris Purnell:
That’s right. That’s right. Yeah. So that’s one book from 2025. And maybe we can just ping-pong back and forth either one book, you do one book.
Ken Tan:
Sure. I mean, that’s a hard one to follow though, but at the same time, I think a lot of things… What’s interesting is at least when I’ve seen in a lot of the bookstores and all, there’s a lot on self-help.
Chris Purnell:
Oh, yeah.
Ken Tan:
Anyway, I mean, even from a theological perspective, I think we can always find that room for improvement and thinking about communication, thinking about just even considerations. And so just to add to that, so I guess the book that I read this past year, it actually came from Andy Stanley. So Andy Stanley is a pastor for North Point. I think a lot of folks know who he is. And I was pretty much reading it based on the book itself as opposed to who the author was.
And the name of the book was The Greatest Question. So it’s kind of like a little catchy, especially even when you and I were at conferences and I go, “Oh, we need a catchy title that has to kind of hook you in.”
Chris Purnell:
That’s right. That’s right.
Ken Tan:
And you’re like, “What is the greatest question?” And so as you start reading it, probably, I don’t want to spoil for everyone, but it takes probably about halfway into the book, finally know what the greatest question was. And the question ultimately is, what is the wise thing to do? And I think that’s something we want to take a pause here because the whole consideration, I had some notes here that just kind of talked about it is you think about what wisdom is versus rules, right?
Chris Purnell:
Yeah.
Ken Tan:
Wisdom goes beyond legality or permissibility. If it really talks through, let me step back for a second. I know what could be done, but what would be the wise thing to do here? It also talks about direction and not intention, right? Really, direction determines your destination.
Chris Purnell:
That’s good.
Ken Tan:
A lot of it also, and I think this is where you and I have the similar thoughts on this is a lot of our stuff could be faith-informed decisions. And in a lot of these ones, and this is where I’m saying this applies to even pastors from a leadership perspective is-
Chris Purnell:
For sure.
Ken Tan:
… we probably know what is the right thing to do, but sometimes, and it’s even said this in the, not the Bible, in the book. I’ve been reading throughout, but I’m sure it isn’t there. I’m in my next iteration of trying to do the Bible in a year, but-
Chris Purnell:
All right.
Ken Tan:
… for this one, you start thinking about, a lot of times in the book it talked about how very easily we know what is the right thing to do, but we try to convince ourselves to do something else. And that’s where the temptation piece is a lot of times you start thinking about even church leadership. A lot of church leaders understand the pressures where we’re saying certain situation. They probably know that, hey, I shouldn’t put myself in this situation. You start to step back and say, “Well, to an extent, you might start to be able to justify some of the things.”
And that’s where it was probably some of the slippery slopes that a lot of church leaders have from ministry perspective. We’re trying to say here, “Hey, look, this one simple question really plays a bigger role of saying, what is the wise thing to do,” because part of that says, this makes an impact not just for you but even those around you.
Chris Purnell:
Yeah. And generationally.
Ken Tan:
And generationally.
Chris Purnell:
One of the things that I think probably came up in the fraud talk, but it’s come up in other fraud talks that I’ve heard is the ability to rationalize behavior that would’ve just been outlandish to you. Years ago is one of the components of a person who’s probably more susceptible to fraud and embezzlement and absconding with funds.
It’s like, “Well, I’ll pay it back. I’ll get them back. It’s temporary, it’s time bound, I’m just in a jam right now.” And then what ends up happening is slowly but surely you begin to erode whatever conscience would’ve been there. So it’s a challenge for sure. Maybe I strike. There we go.
Ken Tan:
So those that are listening, don’t worry, disregard any… We’re trying our best right now with the in person. But no, I think just keeping adding onto that because I handle pretty much majority of the forensic engagements on the CapinCrouse side with my colleague and you can easily see just that rationalization.
And these are actually ministries that we’ve been interacting with. And I know we had the episode that talked about trust but verify. The whole thing here has been like at the end of the day, most of those folks knew what the right answer was. But then the question was, how different is that from the wise thing to do?
Chris Purnell:
That’s right.
Ken Tan:
I think there’s actually some of the quotes that I had left as a part of what I’ve seen from this book. It says, it’s possible to be right and still be unwise. And I think we could probably talk about that from a family perspective. We’re not going to add any more than that.
So for us especially, I think it’s important for us to think about, especially leaders at home, at work, at school, at church, we have to realize the impact that is. So hey, just because that may be the right answer may not be the wisest thing to do.
Chris Purnell:
That’s so true. That’s so true. And relationships generally, you’re right. I remember I was talking to one colleague and he is a person who is just, he’s just right, he’s right. And for the most part, he is right, like 99% of the time. He’s a well-studied person, very smart. And he had a person who was close to him, asked him, “Would you rather be in relationship with a person or be right?”
And first off, I don’t think you have to choose. You can still be correct about things. This is not just like tossing aside orthodoxy and that kind of stuff. But the idea that you don’t have to fight every battle to be right and you can sort of ease back and find a different approach to having that conversation, so I like that. It’s not about being right all the time.
Ken Tan:
And I think just to add on here, wisdom always has a future orientation. So a lot of the things about like, there’s many times when we make our decision, like you’re used to talking about being right and all. Sometimes you’re only thinking about the short term and just realizing when you start thinking about what’s the wise thing you do is saying the impact goes beyond just what’s happening right now, but even the future.
Chris Purnell:
That’s right in there.
Ken Tan:
Yeah. Again, this goes back to, we’ve seen it with moral failures. Think what that does in the future, not just for that person, but even for those that are impacted. We want to do the right thing and it really helps me kind of step back for a second. Not because I’m making bad decision, more so how do I really make sure that what I’m doing here goes beyond.
Chris Purnell:
Yeah. That’s good. That’s good. I think of a couple proverbs. The first one is the most famous one, the fear of the Lord is the beginning to wisdom and having that eternal orientation, that transcendent orientation, that what I’m doing whether it’s with another person or behind closed doors or when no one’s looking is still seen by an almighty God who knows all things and can see all things and will ultimately be the one who judges.
But then another proverb that I think about often is teach us to number our days that we may gain a heart of wisdom.
Ken Tan:
That’s a good one.
Chris Purnell:
And it works on both sides. Yes, we need to number our days because we’re like a vapor in the wind. We’re not going to last for very long. And so we need to kind of seize the day, have the conversation, do the tough task and that sort of thing.
But it also works on the other side too. We’re eternal spiritual beings who will ultimately last forever. And so being able to realize like, yes, this earthly existence is going to pass, but I’ve got an eternal existence that’s going to go on and stretch on for an infinite line. That’s also a way to number our days and that gives us a sense of wisdom. Having an eternal perspective, having a future oriented perspective is so key.
Ken Tan:
And I think it adds an even deeper purpose to even what we do on a day-to-day basis. I think about Colossians 3:23.
Chris Purnell:
Yeah.
Ken Tan:
In all things, work unto God and not unto men. And that for me is like, well, I’m still serving professional science with people, but this is where I saw I was like, hey, my goal here is to be a good steward. And whether it’s relationships, whether it’s some of these engagements that I’m doing, I want to make sure I’m still reflecting the right testimony.
Chris Purnell:
Yeah.
Ken Tan:
Because again, that’s where part of it. It extends even beyond an engagement with our clients. We want to make sure that we’re still leaving that lasting impact in how we perform and how we actually exude ourselves.
Chris Purnell:
That’s good. That’s good.
Ken Tan:
Ping-pong back to you, Chris.
Chris Purnell:
Book number two. Book number two. So one of the things I’ve been thinking about a lot throughout my career, honestly, but just in the past year more so, is the importance of institutions. So there’s been study after study that shows that we are in a historic low when it comes to trust in institutions, whether it’s schools, churches, government, you name it. People are just not wild about institutions.
And so what does that mean? Well, sometimes it means that they’re turning to a social media community. It just means that they’re turning to their chosen family community. Some people choose family, but even that’s an institution that they don’t trust anymore.
But one of the things I’ve been impacted by is realizing, but institutions really are important. Yes, they’re not eternal beings because institutions will come and go, but they will outlast, hopefully, an individual human life on earth. And so building into those institutions like we do at Capin, building into churches, building into universities and colleges, building into nonprofits is super, super key. And it’s a key part of my vocation.
One of the institutions that I think is the hope of the world is the kind of basic institution for the last 2,000 years. Jesus said the gates of hell shall not prevail against it is the church. And so I picked up this little book. I’m going to showcase it on the camera. It’s called The Reason for Church. It’s by a guy named Brad Edwards. And the subtitle is Why The Body of Christ Still Matters in an Age of Anxiety, Division, and Radical Individualism.
So this book, the reason I got turned onto this book was, Christianity Today every year has Christianity Today Book Awards where they have 12 different categories of books and they say, “Here’s the winner of this category, here’s the runner up.” And so every year I kind of glanced through that list and I’m like, “Okay, this is a book that I want to check out.” This was their book of the year, like overall winner for Christianity Today. Out of the hundreds of Christian books that are published every single year, this was the one.
So I picked it up. I’m about halfway through it and it’s in two parts basically. The first part is what is wrong and the second part is what is good. And the second part deals with what theologians call ecclesiology or what we just call the idea of the church. What does the church exist for? How is it formed and that kind of stuff.
And there are just some really good thoughts here regarding why are we in such a radically individualistic state currently where people don’t want to join things anymore or people don’t want to trust institutions anymore. And I think what this author does, what Brad does really well is he’s sensitive to the rationale for why people don’t have trust anymore. He’s like, “Yeah, I kind of get it. I kind of get it.” There have been many, many leaders mostly who have done things that are not worthy of trust, in fact are worthy of being castigated. And he’s just like, “Yeah, I get it.”
So anyway, here are the kind of the big picture things from this first half of the book as to what’s going on in our individual society. So this first one is spiritual pragmatism, how seeker sensitivity and self-actualization reduce the church to a spiritual nonprofit. So the spirituals, the church is now kind of a purveyor of spiritual goods. And so you’re coming in here to the church to get actualized to kind of achieve your most optimal self instead of kind of coming out of yourself to serve other people, a very different orientation.
And then the second chapter is called The Sacred Self, on intuitional spirituality, kind of the spiritual but not religious idea. Number three is Counterfeit Institutions, how social media actually unmakes disciples and that sort of thing. And then the chapter that I just read on the plane is called UnCivil Religions. And this one gets a little spicy because of about politics, and how politics is just a heck of a drug. It’s a heck of a drug.
Ken Tan:
You know what’s interesting, you started talking about like truth and all. It’s interesting in our society nowadays, how much more access we have to knowledge, the information yet now instead of creating more trusting, it’s caused people to start being more questionable.
Chris Purnell:
Isn’t that fascinating?
Ken Tan:
Yeah.
Chris Purnell:
It’s the reverse of what you expect. And I think it’s because we all feel like we’re experts and there’s just so many other avenues for like getting access to “truth” and everyone’s got their own particular avenue. So you’re right, it’s like the erosion of any kind of ground that we can stand on together. It’s tough. It’s bad. It’s bad.
Ken Tan:
Well, I mean, this is where part of a lot of times I try to think about, especially the noise that’s around and the very old and all. I try to rely on that one, I would say the one single source of truth that I look at, which is my Bible in terms of reading about this is actually part of what life is here. There’s going to be potential confusion and all. Again, we’re not trying to talk too theological, but it’s this case essentially saying, “Hey, I think for humans, for us naturally, we are seeking out truth.”
And this where part of it is that a lot of times with the access to some information, it causes us to become more questioning as opposed to really seeing where is truth. And there’s a lot of things I’m saying. Our biggest encouragement is for y’all to actually seek it out.
Chris Purnell:
That’s right. That’s right. Well, and to your point about wisdom earlier, yes, we have no limit to the amount of information we can get access to. It’s all right there. Things that people even a hundred years ago couldn’t even have dreamt of.
But wisdom was what really matters. Wisdom is the tool. It’s the skillset. It’s the wherewithal to actually navigate your way through all the competing voices, shut out the noise, find the truth, find the real stuff, and then move forward and actually live it out in your life. That’s what wisdom is. And that’s what’s in, honestly, pretty short supply.
Ken Tan:
Look. Well, I guess I’ll share about my last book as well.
Chris Purnell:
Awesome, man.
Ken Tan:
And this kind of shows you where I’m at in my stage of life right now. So of course, for a lot of folks here that know that, I’m a dad to four very busy boys.
Chris Purnell:
Got some kids, yeah.
Ken Tan:
Got some kid that is never quiet in the household, so black, something we’ve got, we call it our beautiful chaos. We’re busy, but blessed.
Chris Purnell:
I like it.
Ken Tan:
And a book that someone brought to me to be able to read. It is something that talks more about fatherhood, right? This was a book from Jon Tyson, Intentional Father.
Chris Purnell:
The Aussie.
Ken Tan:
And the whole thing here, and the premise here was to be focusing on rejecting passivity and embracing the God-given responsibility to actively shape children’s spiritual, emotional, and moral formation. And there’s a lot of things in that book that at the end of the day, I don’t think is a surprise to us. But I think it just shows the importance of even our roles as leaders at home because that even exudes even to in the future in a workplace of how we also reflect ourselves.
And a lot of it talks about fathers play a big role of shaping identity, not just behavior in terms of formation, right? For my boys, I think about just the fact that right now I am probably their role model from the house perspective, but eventually there’s going to be other role models potentially.
Chris Purnell:
Yeah, for sure. Hopefully, yeah.
Ken Tan:
But it’s meant to be saying that they’re going to be looking up to someone in terms of how do they really start shaping who they are in the future. And this really talks about trying to be very intentional.
Chris Purnell:
Yeah.
Ken Tan:
The second, Intentional Father, it is intentional presence. That’s why I care. When we talk about work-life balance a few episodes ago, I think this is one of the things I continue to work on because again, I think for us, we’ve been blessed with the ability to have that flexibility.
Chris Purnell:
That’s right.
Ken Tan:
But there’s so many times that just in the full busyness of life, it’s so easy for us to forget to be present. And this is one of the things for me, I was like, in the blink of eye I’m sure for you with your kid, in the blink of eye, they went from being a newborn to suddenly now they’re kind of doing their own things. And I know that that’s going to be the case for me. And I’m trying to at least remember that there is time for me to be busy, but there’s also time for me to step back and be present.
Chris Purnell:
That’s really good. That’s really good. And it’s definitely a challenge, right? It’s a tension to be managed, as they say. And so many dads, and I can only speak from a dad’s perspective, but it’s so many dads, we just sleepwalk through life. And we’re not intentional about a lot of things, whether it’s intentional with our free time, intentional with the way that we’re doing work, intentional in this case with the way that we’re parenting our kids.
And I think it’s incredibly important that as fathers who have kids in varying stages that you take those intentional moments, it’s going to look different when you have kids your age than the kids my age, but the intentionality is still the same. Showing up, being present, not kind of clocking out because the temptation is always there. So that’s powerful.
Ken Tan:
Yeah. I also think about for boys in general, I start thinking about as a father, they all go through this potential, what would help me essentially become from a boy. And the book talks about great ways, think about it in a spiritual way of how do you help them get to that position in the future. And they talk about rites of passing.
Yeah, I shared it before, and we actually just finished this, but we have a family tradition now, of course, going to the rodeo. We go to the rodeo. And part of it was our very first son did mutton busting, which for those that aren’t familiar with it, you’re riding this sheep. You have a helmet on, you have full padding. So you’re going to be protected, but you’re in front of a large crowd and you hop on the sheep with a bunch of people getting you loaded up and they suddenly open up the pen like they do with the bull riding and you’re off to the race to hold onto dear life.
And we realized, hey, we can do this for our boys. So our first did it, then our second born did it. And this past year, our third born, he’s great, very nervous, right? I don’t know if I can do this or this. And I don’t know where I got this. Again, I’m not going to say I took this self and trademarked it. I said, “Son, here’s how I think about it, boy. I think about difficulty today is strength for tomorrow.” And I said, “Sometimes we’re going to go through tough times. Every man does that. Boys are going to go through that, but helping that build some character for the future.”
Chris Purnell:
Amen.
Ken Tan:
He ultimately got up there and he rode that sheep. He didn’t ride that long compared to his brother.
Chris Purnell:
But he got on.
Ken Tan:
Yeah. But then he said, “Hey, I enjoyed that. I want to do that next year.” Well, hey, imagine that you overcame your fear and now you have that courage to take it on again in the future. And it’s like, I’m not saying like, oh, suddenly can I be a philosopher? I need my [inaudible 00:28:51].
Chris Purnell:
Sage.
Ken Tan:
You just like, hey, you want to help encourage him because one day you’re going to have to be like, “Son, when you become an adult one day, you’re going to have some difficult situations. We’ve all tried. We’ve all had our valleys, but just know you’re not going to go at it alone. Dad’s going to be there every step of the way and know that you will have certain things you could reflect on to say, ‘I’ve been through something before, I can do it again.'”
Chris Purnell:
That’s a sweet moment. That’s a sweet moment. And I think you’re exactly right. That’s going to pay dividends in the future because not only will he realize that I can do a hard thing and make it through a hard thing, but when the time comes to do a really hard thing, whatever it is, a relational thing that you have to do or stand up and be courageous for something, he’ll have that kind of muscle memory and that virtue built up to be able to say, “I’m acting courageous because I am courageous.”
So often with courage, we see it as like, I’m just acting like I’m not afraid, but a true courage comes from a person who’s been formed by whatever it is, usually by adversity, suffering, or in this case like these tests that you put yourself through in these rites of passage.
Ken Tan:
I mean, I’ll admit, if I was that age too and I had to go in front of a huge crowd-
Chris Purnell:
It’s kind of scary.
Ken Tan:
Of course, I make it through now. I was like, that’s pretty… But then they can look back and see I’ve done it and it helps build some of that little by little.
Well, Chris, is there a book that you’re planning on or if you’re currently reading on that you’re feeling like, hey, this will be one that we’d love to talk about later?
Chris Purnell:
So I don’t know if it’s a particular book, but I’ve got a theme for 2026. So 2025, as everyone knows, was the 1700th anniversary of the Council of Nicaea getting together and forming the Nicene Creed, 325. Huge, huge ramifications for the way that we think about doctrine and the church and all that kind of stuff. So I read a lot of books on the Council of Nicaea and the Nicene Creed.
This year, hopefully everyone in America knows that this is the 250th anniversary of the Declaration of Independence. So this year, I’m reading, listening to podcasts on the Declaration of Independence and the founding and kind of general American history, honestly. So there’s a couple of books on the drafting of the Declaration of Independence that I’m looking forward to. There’s one book that I’m reading currently on the personalities that the founders had. Dude, some of those dudes were just nuts, like bona fide nuts, but brilliant, absolutely brilliant. Never a dull moment.
Ken Tan:
Listen, they went through just this consideration because-
Chris Purnell:
Absolutely.
Ken Tan:
… from the British side, this was treason.
Chris Purnell:
That’s right.
Ken Tan:
I’m going to pause.
Chris Purnell:
That’s right.
Ken Tan:
I’m not going to add anyone on that. I just want to just say that-
Chris Purnell:
You’re like a pro-British guy over here.
Ken Tan:
No, no, no, no.
Chris Purnell:
So anyway, realizing the different personality types and the different reasons that they had for jumping into the revolution. So for instance, you got John Adams. I’m reading this one book on sketches of the Revolutionary Fathers. You’ve got John Adams who was a little bit more kind of reserved, tempered in the way that he thought about things. He was really, honestly, just trying to get ahead as a well-to-do lawyer in Massachusetts. But then something happened and the governor of Massachusetts just kind of rubbed in the wrong way, and he jumped into the revolution and he jumped into it with a really strong spirit.
Contrast that with Thomas Jefferson, who was kind of patrician and kind of a thought leader when it came to the revolution. Obviously he wrote the Declaration of Independence or he was the primary author of it.
Ken Tan:
So it was time in France, right?
Chris Purnell:
That’s right. That’s right. Spent a good deal of time in France along with Benjamin Franklin and a little bit of Adams too, but mostly those two guys.
Ken Tan:
I learned something from that Broadway music.
Chris Purnell:
Our kids got it on repeat, man. So anyway, this is going to be the year of the semi-quincentennial, which just rolls off the tongue, the semi-quincentennial reading for Chris Purnell. So it’s going to be a lot of fun.
Ken Tan:
That’s wonderful. I know, especially with our boys, we’re definitely going through a lot of curriculum that talks about history of the United States. And really understanding, especially part of it, the legacy that was there at the part. Again, no one’s going to say it’s perfect and all but essentially saying here’s how we got to where we are today. Acknowledging that, hey, we as a generation here are passing onto the next generation.
Chris Purnell:
That’s right.
Ken Tan:
Our kids, and just saying, “Hey, here’s some of the things that we want to leave with you guys to know, to appreciate some of the things, to understand certain things, and acknowledge it for the future.”
Chris Purnell:
And the institutions. The institutions matter, the institution of government. That’s right. Carrying that on.
Ken Tan:
So that’s one of the things I know we’re going to do something similar. There is one book that’s on my list. I’m waiting for the library to accept it for me to do it as an audiobook. So for those that don’t have this yet, actually there’s an app called Libby you get with your local library and have free audio recordings. And so, one of the books that I’m listening, and we’ll probably read, is called The Ruthless Elimination of Hurry from John Mark Comer.
Chris Purnell:
Yeah.
Ken Tan:
For those that don’t know him, he’s a pastor over in the West Coast. And a lot of things he’s trying to talk about was kind of talking about that presence, even also about rest. Because especially in ministry and professional life, it’s so easy for us to get caught up with the term being busy.
Chris Purnell:
That’s right.
Ken Tan:
And it’s really hard for us to sit back and just say, “Hey, let’s just sit and just quiet for a moment. Take it and be present.” And that’s one of the things that I think I’m trying to work on this year. Now, it’s not really ever quiet at our house.
Chris Purnell:
I’ll just say good luck with that.
Ken Tan:
Look at that… My wife definitely has a tougher job and that’s already been a…
Chris Purnell:
That’s true.
Ken Tan:
Anything that pertains to quiet is near as… But during that time, it’s not like being intentional and really trying to prioritize really what matters for you from a life perspective. Not saying work doesn’t matter because it is important, but saying, “Hey, we want to expand beyond that.” And so that’s one of the things that I feel like this book is going to be important for me to at least try and take some takeaways on. So that’s kind of my hope.
Chris Purnell:
That’s a good word. That’s a good word. Yeah. John Mark Comer has done a lot of good stuff. And the actual title of that book come from a quote from Dallas Willard. Dallas Willard, who was a famous philosopher/theologian, died about seven or eight years ago. And he was asked, what is the key to the spiritual life? And he said, “Ruthlessly eliminate all hurry.”
Ken Tan:
And there’s something strong about that.
Chris Purnell:
Oh, yeah.
Ken Tan:
Ruthless. He’s not just saying, “Oh, would you get rid of it?” It’s like you really just-
Chris Purnell:
Don’t be passive, but be like intentional.
Ken Tan:
Intentional. I feel like it’s going to be a keyword this year, ruthless and intentional, right?
Chris Purnell:
Yeah.
Ken Tan:
Well, Chris, man, I’m so glad we’re able to have this in person. We’re going to try to do another in-person one with our auditor friends. So my hope is those folks listening, hang in there, don’t worry. Auditors do have feelings and they have character too.
Chris Purnell:
They really do. They really do. They’re great people.
Ken Tan:
But there’s a reason why a consultant and a tax person are on this podcast. Just kidding. Awesome. Thank you guys. Catch up with you all soon.
Chris Purnell:
Take care.
This is not a CPA firm. Assurance, attest, and audit services provided by CapinCrouse LLC. Carr, Riggs & Ingram and CRI are the brand names under which Carr, Riggs & Ingram LLC, CRI Advisors LLC, and CapinCrouse LLC, and CRI CapinCrouse Advisors LLC provide professional services. CRI CPA, CapinCrouse CPA, CRI Advisors, CapinCrouse Advisors, Carr, Riggs & Ingram Capital LLC, and their respective subsidiaries operate as an alternative practice structure in accordance with the AICPA Code of Professional Conduct and applicable law, regulations, and professional standards.
CRI CPA and CapinCrouse CPA are licensed independent certified public accounting firms that separately provide attest services as well as additional ancillary services to their clients. CRI CPA and CapinCrouse CPA are independently owned CPA firms that provide attestation services separate from one another. CRI Advisors and CapinCrouse Advisors provide tax and business consulting services to its clients. CRI Advisors and its subsidiaries, including CapinCrouse Advisors, are not licensed CPA firms and will not provide any attest services.
The entities falling under the Carr, Riggs & Ingram or CRI brand are independently owned and are not responsible or liable for the services and/or products provided or engaged to be provided by any other entity under the Carr, Riggs & Ingram or CRI brand. Our use of the term CRI, we, our, us in terms of similar import, denote the alternative practice structure conducted by CRI CPA, CapinCrouse CPA, CapinCrouse Advisors, and CRI Advisors as appropriate.